Thursday, 30 June 2016

Time (PBCC style)

It is apparent that the PBCC have a very strange understanding of time. Believing that the world was created within the last 10,000 years, is about as scientifically incorrect as you can get. I have even heard said that fossils were introduced into rock formations by God, in an attempt to mislead people as to the age of the planet Earth.

Now we are seeing PBCC sympathisers claiming that because something happened 24 years ago, it is somehow irrelevant. I have met this excuse many times in my recent dealings with the PBCC and indeed encountered it before I had even left the organisation. On the one hand Brethren 'priests' were very keen to probe into the intimate sex lives of married members, what they indulged in before marriage and in some cases, after marriage. This wasn't a look at adultery and unfaithfulness, this was a microscope on what happily married couples did in courtship and behind bedroom doors. Elderly couples were faced with telling the local EB assembly ( children and infants present) in graphic detail what their courtship had included, including what most people would term as 'petting'. The humiliation and embarrassment of having to revisit this, in public and in front of their own offspring, was immense and led to many otherwise line toeing members having their first taste of 'assembly administration' in the form of being banished from fellowship for a week. Many of these things happened before and during the Second World War and there we were, raking them up over 40 odd years later.

On the other hand, I personally witnessed EB 'priests' asking 'why are you bringing that up now? It happened years ago' as an excuse to dodge being held accountable. If I had a penny for every time I've been told that 'things are different now, we've changed', I'd be up their with Bruce Hales on a Rich List somewhere. After refusing to confront EB wrong doers for nearly 30 years because they were scared of rocking the boat, members of my own close family and other PBCC Trust personnel now tell me that because people involved are now deceased, or their memory fails them, they are unable to 'check the facts' and as a result, matters are closed.

How very convenient. Hang on to a dirty secret long enough, take it to the grave with you and everything's fine. Two things come to mind. One, a genuine Christian believes that he/she is accountable to God and will one day have to explain their actions and two, in law the passage of time does not diminish the seriousness of a crime. So why do the PBCC think it does?

Sodomy with young boys 40 years ago is as serious an offence now as when it took place. Attempted chemical castration, tampering with evidence, bestiality, sexual abuse of young children, causing death by dangerous driving, drink driving, intimidation, attempting to influence another country's electoral system financially, are the same. As serious now, as when the crimes took place.

Are we to believe that the hand written letter of John Hales to Brian Deck was forged? Does the passage of 50 years since it was written, render it 'irrelevant'?

What of a member sadistically murdered 40 years ago? We don't talk about that any more? Surely it must continue to be a concern? It is to the Devon and Cornwall Constabulary. Someone killed an innocent member of the EB, you'd think they would leave no stone unturned in bringing that person to justice. Why not spend millions of pounds seeking justice for Esther Soper, rather than spending similarly vast amounts of charity money trying to gag us from telling the truth?


  1. This can be beautifully answered..
    'Shall not the judge of all the earth do right' Also Paul was very strong in his language about persons who made their complaint public before worldly courts. Lastly,those of you without sin cast the first stone. There you go, signed sealed and delivered. Thus we have to do with the most high God and not stooping to shameful slurs on these people. I find nothing grievious about them, even if they are stuck in their ways. Live and let live.
    See- you have the nursed a spirit of revenge, instead of forgiveness. You will never experience release and peace by remaining in such a state.
    Jesus said, 'l am the way, the truth and the life' Nobody can claim to know Christ, if they speak evil of those who love him. Very simple really.Aak yourselves -Are my actions making me happy or sad?

    Former member resting in
    The presence of Christ

    1. Anonymous of 1 July 2016 at 00:13,
      Your exhortation to be forgiving and not vengeful is admirably appropriate when considering one-off misdeeds that affected the plaintiff personally in the past and no one else. Indeed, I have already treated that kind of misdeed exactly as you recommend. For instance, I have never in public aired grievances about the evil things that the Brethren individually or collectively did only to me personally, and I don’t intend to.

      But forgiving, forgetting and leaving it all to the Lord to sort out is not an appropriate way for a Christian or anyone else to act when the same misdeeds are continuing and affecting many other people, including vulnerable children. Some of the misdeeds being complained about are of this sort. When we know that people are still being hurt and harmed by Brethren practices and policies, it is incumbent upon us to do what we can to deter these practices and policies.

      But what can we do? Appealing privately to the Brethren leaders has had no perceptible effect. Letters are ignored and interviews are usually refused or indefinitely delayed. Those who have tried it meet with a stone wall or worse, such as legal threats. The only action that so far has had any deterrent effect is to expose these facts publicly, in accordance with the good advice of Matthew 18.

      In order for evil to flourish it is only necessary that good people do nothing. That is more or less what your post seems to recommend.

    2. Anon 1 July 00:13

      Your comment is breathtaking in its arrogance, condescension, hypocrisy, falsehoods, and twisting of facts, truth and abuse of Gods Word !

      You should be ashamed of yourself !

      1. “Also Paul was very strong in his language about persons who made their complaint public before worldly courts”

      Response – It was the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethrens own former leader, James Taylor Junior, who said “sue the bastards”. It is the PBCC aka EB who regularly take former and current members to “worldly courts” in order to divide families, separate children from parents, gain monetary wealth etc. It was the PBCC who took court action, even threatening to go to the European Court of Human Rights over the recent Charity Commission inquiry from 2012 to 2014. It was the PBCC aka EB who lobbied the UK Parliament spreading lies and misinformation.

      The Biblical Apostle Paul was also very strong in his instructions to Christians to submit and obey the authority of the land. Please read your Bible properly –

      Romans 13 Darby Translation
      13 Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above [him]. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. 2 So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who [thus] resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to a good work, but to an evil [one]. Dost thou desire then not to be afraid of the authority? practise [what is] good, and thou shalt have praise from it; 4 for it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou practisest evil, fear; for it bears not the sword in vain; for it is God's minister, an avenger for wrath to him that does evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only on account of wrath, but also on account of conscience. 6 For on this account ye pay tribute also; for they are God's officers, attending continually on this very thing. 7 Render to all their dues: to whom tribute [is due], tribute; to whom custom, custom; to whom fear, fear; to whom honour, honour.

      1 Peter 2:13-15 Darby Translation
      13 Be in subjection [therefore] to every human institution for the Lord's sake; whether to [the] king as supreme, 14 or to rulers as sent by him, for vengeance on evildoers, and praise to them that do well. 15 Because so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye put to silence the ignorance of senseless men;

      2. “Nobody can claim to know Christ, if they speak evil of those who love him.”

      Response – It is the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church who speak evil of those who love Him. It is the PBCC aka EB who -

      - Separate from ALL other Christians and Christian Churches
      - Refuse to eat or drink with ANY other Christians
      - Refuse to worship, fellowship, or sit at the Lords Table with ANY other Christians
      - Teach that if a member leaves the PBCC aka EB they have lost Christianity
      - Separate and “withdraw from” any member who leaves to go to a Christian Church

      These actions are carried out under the so called doctrine of “Separation from Evil”. This means PBCC aka EB are declaring ALL other Christians who love Christ, who are outside the PBCC EB as “Evil” iniquitous and not fit for Christian fellowship !

      At every turn the so called “ministry” of the PBCC EB belittles & criticises ALL other Christians and Christian Churches declaring them ALL to be wrong, in error, without the Holy Spirit and places where the Lord is not Free to come

      These actions and doctrines, absolutely “speak evil of those who love him”
      These actions and doctrines are “grievous” to Christ

      My friend,

      You have just condemned the very group you are trying to defend. The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren can NOT claim to know Christ, if they speak evil of those who love Him

      Brother Rev

  2. I think Brother Rev has pretty well covered it perfectly with the last few paragraphs there. It is the one thing that puzzles me about the PBCC and why their stupid separation rule runs in the face of the bible and takes them with it. How can you hate other Christians? It doesn't add up. But they do. And for no other reason than they are not born into the PBCC. Go figure.

  3. I have never heard of the peebs speakibg evil of others. True they might well speak evil of evil, but that's fair enough. That comment by Rev carries no credibility. In my own experience, l find them a force for good in this unstable world. The outcome of the EU vote could not have been so favourable without them. Yes Rev, evil is being contained, so maybe you will have a rethink before making grossly untrue statements.
    Furthermore,we need to take a stand against the tide of evil that has eroded the very foundations of society.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"
    Have some backbone please and stop being hateful to other Christians.

    1. Anon 2 July 22:38

      Thank you for your response

      As I explained very clearly in my post of 1 July at 09:02, The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren practice the following actions and doctrines–

      - Separate from ALL other Christians and Christian Churches
      - Refuse to eat or drink with ANY other Christians
      - Refuse to worship, fellowship, or sit at the Lords Table with ANY other Christians
      - Teach that if a member leaves the PBCC aka EB they have lost Christianity
      - Separate and “withdraw from” any member who leaves to go to a Christian Church

      This list is from the actual practices and doctrines of the PBCC EB, in other words, what the PBCC EB actually do.

      Anon 2 July 22:38,

      Are you now denying that PBCC aka EB practice the above actions and doctrines ?

      Are you now denying that these actions and doctrines absolutely “speak evil of those who love him” ?

      Are you now denying that these actions and doctrines are “grievous” to Christ ?

      Are you now denying that these actions and doctrines cast ALL other Christians outside the PBCC aka EB as evil, iniquitous and not fit for Christian fellowship ?

      Are you now denying that PBCC aka EB teach that ALL other Christian Churches outside PBCC aka EB are wrong, in error, without the Holy Spirit, and places where the Lord is not free to come ?

  4. The problem isn't any Brethren centric problem.

    If we are to compare the Catholic church with the way that they are also seen to have been dragging chain with regards to their need to quickly address abuse that happened within the Catholic Church.Or consider that 150 years would first need to pass on by,before the Church of England would finally agree to deliver some sort of apologies to Darwin.An act,that by then,would mainly serve to help relieve the church themselves of any remaining feelings of guilt or shame

    Traditionally theism devalues this aspect of time within our lives.And so just like what happened with Darwin, many ex eb possibly wont even receive any official apology ourselves,until long after our own death

    Because its something that seem to be considered traditionally acceptable

    1. The Church of England did not have all that much to apologise to Darwin for. They did not persecute him the way Galileo was persecuted, and many churchmen were convinced by the scientific evidence that Darwin collected. They did not try to separate him from his wife and family or do any of the vindictive things that Brethren have often done to those who disagree with them. Darwin remained a good and supportive friend of his local Church of England vicar.

      J. N. Darby did not exactly welcome the theory of evolution, but neither did he dismiss it completely. In his essay on Evolution, he says evolution is true to a certain point, and in his essay on Miracles and Infidelity, page 175, he says, “Let evolution be true, which in some respects it may be, . . .”

      It is only later Brethren leaders that have said extreme things about Darwin and evolution, and it is only later Brethren leaders that have said extreme things about their dissenters and treated them abominably.

    2. "The Church of England did not have all that much to apologise to Darwin for. "

      Exactly.You help me prove my point.The Church of England had little to apologize for.Yet it still took them around 150 years to finally decide to apologize.The Church of England really didn't care less,that Darwin wouldn't gain anything from an apology that arrive 150 years late

      Forget the evolution issue.The issue here is the way that it seems it has become a Christian tradition, that most Christians don't care less if a person would die before they receive justice.This is possibly what we can fully expect happen too,while we still have so many believers whom promote ideas of an eternity

      Likewise,most ex ab people visiting this blog here.Will be likely to also die too,before they even receive a proper apology

      Theism creates people who are very happy to devalue these aspects of our life

      The OP discusses the Brethren way with issues of time. My point is that this problem isnt any Brethren centric problem

  5. Anon PBCC member/apologist 22.38

    Others will have greater evidence, but as I recall, peevish Peebs speak ill even of each other, especially when positioning for power.

    Evidence for the EU vote please? Were the Peebs allowed to vote? (as an indivual exercise,of course). Assuming they all did, the impact was minimal.

    What is this mythical evil shaking the foundations of society? Granted there are intolerant, separatist, religious extremists causing dreadful havoc in our families, and others acting indiscriminately, with horribile results, in our public places. However, these evils are narrowly defined by small ideologically driven groups and are not part of a general and vague malaise.

    I doubt whether those who have been affected by the former find Peebs to be a force for good, let alone those who have been more intimately abused. Furthermore, there is little force for good in fatal driving accidents caused by reckless and drunken driving. Why are the Peebs so cavalier? Really, because they have contempt for others, a notion that they are superior and that God will judge in their favour, whatever they do - *blessed assurance* underwritten by the Uiversal Business Team, CEO Bruce Hales.

    All that it takes for the abusive PBBC (who are *without* Christianity) to prosper, is for Christians, and others, to do nothing.

    *One for the Road*

  6. "Furthermore,we need to take a stand against the tide of evil that has eroded the very foundations of society."

    Well that's a statement to end all with these Brethren. When have you taken a stand against your child molesters? I've watched you protect them and welcome them back into open arms. When has Hales or his predecessors taken a stand on alcohol? I see it only getting worse. When will we see a stand on calling everyone else on this planet evil and 'in darkness'? Never - it's part of the PBCC deluded dogma. When will we just get to see some sort of basic honesty in the PBCC on any range of issues? Never- it's not in their makeup. When will we see Hales start talking like he has some real conviction in his position? Never - he loves his worldly PR gurus too much with their strategies. When will the PBCC be honest about anything? Not in my lifetime I would expect. When will we see a MOG takeover that is not tinged with blood? When will we see some free thinking? When will we ever see the right thing being done with regard to families that have been torn to shreds? When will we ever see thousands of financial matters 'put right' where people have lost their livelihoods as well as their families? Probably never. When will we ever see a people who transcend from being totally deluded to becoming real Christians? We all know the answer is NEVER. You cannot defend the indefensible.