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Tuesday, 12 April 2016

Bloody Hypocrites

 

One of the Brethren's fellow cults preaches the same hatred for the world.

I don't know how many of you have seen Shirley Phelps - the daughter of the foul mouthed pseudo Baptist Preacher and former head of the Westboro Baptist Church, Fred Phelps, on various mediums, spouting her hate filled, conflicting and very strangely derived messages that bundles God hating everything from Gays to American Soldiers and even the victims of Australian bushfires. 

 

But I reacquainted myself with this vile hypocrite on You Tube the other day. And it got me to thinking, how different are these religious truth manglers from the Exclusive or Plymouth Brethren? The truth is, they are remarkably similar - if only for their apparent blatant hypocrisy.  If you do something they don't like, they will hound you to accept their idea of hell and ruin your life for it. But if they do it too - it's OK.

 

Take Shirley Phelps. A woman so strident in her hatred of the pleasures of the flesh that she knows every minute biblical quote on the subject and screams it at people all over America while holding up gaudy signs about God hating everything.She's fixated with sex based sin. Especially Gays. Or Fags as Fred Phelps called them. "God hates fornicators" she screamsinto her megaphone. But - if you dig a little deeper you will find out that Shirley herself is the mother of an illegitimate son and having married within her tiny church, which is so small it is almost mandatory to interbreed - she then went on to have eleven kids in total. Now call me old fashioned - but eleven kids don't just arrive on your doorstep. You have to do an awful lot of horizontal tangos to get them. Not that this matters to Shirley. She can fornicate all she likes - but she will preach at you that you cannot. 

 

Of course Fred Phelps was vile on almost every level. He's dead now thank God! Cruel to his wife and kids and his brainwashed congregation, he is so full of fire and brimstone,that it obviously started to alter his sanity. The man was a bully. He beat his wife according to Shirley's brother and belted his children into submission throughout their young lives. That's what the fire and brimstone brigade do. They subdue you through brutality,  both verbal and in Fred's case, physically. And all in the name of religion. And here's another similarity. They both hate the world. Both camps state emphatically - that they hate the world. And they are not of the world. And that they are the only true church. 

 

So if I was comparing the two brands of hate mongers, would I find any real similarity? You would have to say that Symington was a bully at times. And John Hales. And his brother Bruce for that matter. And Taylor Junior became a bully in later life too. Deriding his congregation and using vile words to describe them. Just like Fred Phelps did. Of course they will say, just like the Brethren, that their leaders were full of love and compassion. Try telling that to the thousands they have wronged.  

 

But as you do on You Tube - I got to watching some of the older stories on the Peebs. And they have now embraced the internet.  The 'pipeline of filth' as they used to call it. They now post their own contrived propaganda videos of happy families doing worldly things to appear 'normal'. As an ex-Peeb who like thousands, was booted for nothing much with the loss of everything I held dear, I found this remarkably offensive. As offensive as I find the hypocrisy of the Phelps. 

 

First we had the young Brethren kids walking down the surf beach with the latest competition surfboards under their arms. Followed by the fully kitted out BMX riders undertaking a professional course, before descending on their mother in the kitchen, who is preparing dinner with her recently cut hair. Which led to their friends coming round to dinner where they all drank wine and toasted each other like real worldly people. Now I lost count at the time as to how many of these singular acts would have gotten you thrown out on your ear in my day with the loss of your family and everything else for life. The hypocrisy was breathtaking. Then we have the 'worldly' people they have roped in to provide testimonials about how 'nice' and 'normal' they are. Like the school teacher who bangs on about the Brethren children while one plays Claire De Lune behind her. I can remember someone very close to me being taken to task in their church for his love of classical music. I can remember family members being banned from being in a school orchestra which partially ruined their lives.  I suppose the woman's dependency on them for a job had nothing to do with it?

 

So let's recap on the sins here, that yesterday, would have totally wrecked your life. 

• Being on a beach was a sin. I know of families who got thrown out because someone thought they saw them near a beach.
• Having the internet - let alone being a participant in it, was so sinful, you would have been slung out and harassed through the courts for your kids and business. True, I know two families torn to pieces because the father said he wouldn't mind having a PC to help with his business accounting. They're both gone, having been ejected from the sect for the thought, but their wives and kids remain brainwashed in their sect. They never saw them again.    
• Surfing would have been a sin so horrendous and so 'worldly' that they would have had a special meeting to rid themselves of you at the earliest opportunity.
• Women cutting their hair was strictly forbidden. Many were withdrawn from for fiddling with their hair and not wearing a 'token' or a scarf. They now do cut it and colour it despite their leader muttering his misgivings about it.  
• Drinking red wine and toasting things. Hmmmm - they have nearly always liked a drink, championed  by James Taylor Jnr who really liked to drink. But a whole family drinking red wine with meals and clinking glasses. I could never have imagined it in my day.

 

And the final similarity has got to do with this ridiculous notion that they, like the Westboro Baptist Church, are the only true church despite being pitifully small in numbers. Truth is, they both love and hog the publicity whenever they can get it. Both have remarkably active PR machines belting out sanitised messages of normality. They even invite Mayors to their preaching's and nibbles. I wonder how those Mayors would go at one of their ministry meetings watching a family torn to shreds.      

 

But if you want to see some of the real truth about the Brethren - it's all there on You Tube. They hang themselves with their own actions and words. Their real 'normality' is on display too and not just the sanitised versions that they would have us believe is true.

 

But with all cults, their congregations are not all filled with control goons filled with hellfire threats and their sycophants. The Westboro Baptist Church has enquiring minds too in the congregation and kids are leaving in droves. They don't ever get to see their families again either. Just like the Brethren.But the chance to be really normal and not be harassed for it, is just too overpowering.          

72 comments:

  1. Yes, but what's the connection between this evil cult and God's chosen people simply going about their business and, by their example, making the world a better place. You people really have fertile imaginations. In fact, not so much fertile, as bitter, misplaced and evil.

    ProudToBeAPeeb

    ReplyDelete
  2. ProudToBeAPeeb
    I am sorry that you are so brainwashed that you cannot draw a comparison between the Westboro Baptist Church and the Exclusive Brethren aka PBCC.
    When I was at school admittedly many years ago we were often asked to compare and contrast two situations or organisations. If you do not accept the similarities identified in the above article perhaps you could highlight the significant differences between the two organisations.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Gal 5.1
    I'm not sure which group ProudToBeAPeeb was calling an evil cult and which group they were calling God's chosen people. I had presumed that the pseudonym was not sarcasm and that the writer was probably a peeb, so thought it most likely that God's chosen people was referring to the peebs and not the Westboro Baptists. I could not be entirely sure though.

    However, it is true that both groups are evil cults who preach hatred and punish those who disagree with them. It is only untrue if you are a member of one of them - then you become unable to see things for what they are, or do see it as evil but become unable to face the reality of it. For many cult escapees (peeb, Westboro, JW, Mormon, etc) it is only after many years of freedom that the true evil of the cult they escaped becomes apparent.

    Eddie

    ReplyDelete
  4. Dear Proud and deluded enough to be a Peeb,

    The similarities are quite remarkable actually. If you took the time to do a little research instead of just discounting everything out of hand - you would see for yourself. For starters, they treat as dead, anyone who leaves them. Just like the Peebs. They also say they are the only true church and that they are God's chosen people - just like you said - and that they alone are going to heaven. They also say they hate the world (in the most hateful way) just like you guys. Peas in a pod is how I would describe you! Do some research Pal. Mind you research is forbidden in the Brethren I'm sure. It interferes with the truth. Their 'truth.'

    There are none so blind as those who won't see.

    Making the world a better place??? Really. You destroy families and do bugger all for real charities. You don't involve yourself in communities and never have. You take millions in tax payer funds for your closed schools and you refuse to pay rates on your closed halls. I'd say you take way more than you give mate. This is where the Peebs cross over to the plain stupid zone. Just like the Westboro clowns. They refuse to see the reality of their actions too.

    ReplyDelete
  5. The last few years’ changes in EB behaviour described in the article are striking and have been confirmed by many independent sources. It is certainly true that some activities and thoughts that would have got you summarily slung out of the Exclusives in the past are now commonplace among them. That is understandably galling for those who, for some trivial infraction of some silly rule, were slung out against their will, often with the cruel loss of every friend and family member that they ever had, sometimes with loss of home, job, inheritance, livelihood, health and sanity too.

    But there are also a couple of good things to come out of the changes. One is the clear demonstration that Brethren “Truth” is not immutable, and is therefore not truth. That fact cannot be lost on any EB member that dares to face it. And the other very good thing is that the EB collectively are undergoing a small measure of reform, and their young people are now allowed to enjoy some of the best things in life, including a little freedom, taking part in choirs, orchestras and dramatic productions, exploring the great outdoors, listening to more genres of music, pursuing more advanced courses of education, and who knows how far it will go? They still have light years to travel before they are truly free, but what we have seen so far could be the start of a very healthy change.

    The hypocrisy of the leadership, of course, is not hidden from many outside observers. The changes described in the above article may well have been permitted largely for public relations purposes, which are financially advantageous, particularly if they help to preserve charitable status or Government funding for schools. But for the rank-and-file EB members, their participation in these new pursuits is not hypocrisy. They thoroughly enjoy the meagre morsels of freedom permitted to them. Long may they do so, and long may the reforms continue!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ian

      Sorry to say this, but I don't agree with you

      I suggest reading about Laodicea

      Matthew

      Delete
    2. Matthew, could you be more specific about what exactly you disagree with? I am familiar with what has been written about Laodicea in Colossians, Revelation, and secular history, but what particular point about it do you have in mind?

      I sometimes wonder what happened to Paul’s epistle that he sent to Laodicea and referred to in Colossians 4:16. Maybe it was the epistle that we now call the Epistle to the Ephesians.

      Delete
    3. Ian, as you suggest, changes are happening for PR purposes, maybe family, many money opportunities or to keep people ensnared.
      But the core is still wrong, the system, the materialism, the idolatry, the deceit, the breaking of families, the false sense of Christianity

      The need for Christ to eclipse every man, and have control over every Christian is not recognized by the EB.

      By allowing some surface changes, the authorities and members are kept happy, and the wrong continues. The rust is painted over!

      I was thinking of this when Laodicea in Revelation came to mind. I would like the EB members to become 'hot' and be converted from a system of idolatry to being Christian. Failing that if they stayed 'cold' hopefully a head-on situation with the CC, or member discontent will lead to a mass exodus

      Matthew

      Delete

  6. Wholeheartedly agree with - PROUD-TO-BE-A-PEEB :)
    I salute thee friend with hearty salutations and award thee with seventy beautiful and chaste virgins.

    Seems people commenting on this site prefer to quietly sweep their own history under the proverbial carpet and then have the sheer gall to cry 'Foul" Please grow up and stop the Hypocrisy. Remember Christ died for (OUR) sins. It begs the question - Have we really come to the end of ourselves and accepted we have come short of the divine standard? Ahhhh you see, Self gets in the way every time.

    "ALL HAVE SINNED AND HAVE COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD"
    Thank you all in advance

    Pesky Peeb Outreach

    ReplyDelete
  7. Ian

    You also failed to admit your post is

    nothing more than the Fart of God

    Matthew



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ian

      I wrote 15 April 2016 at 16:06 & 18 April 2016 at 16:34

      I DID NOT WRITE this, 16 April 2016 at 08:43
      I actually find it offensive and disrepectful

      Matthew

      Delete
    2. Don’t worry, Matthew, I had already noticed that there are two contributors using the same name. I think one of them is having a joke at the expense of the EB member who first used a rather distasteful phrase.

      Delete
  8. Ian, your response is very spiritual.
    Do you think the fart of God links with what you wrote on 14th April at 10:59?
    So thankful you are here to give us the help we need in these closing days of the testicle. What a delight as we contemplate these divine things.

    Graham

    ReplyDelete
  9. Laodicea? Is that to do with dogs and vomit?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Frank Answer to 18:58 and FOG
    No,Laodicea is rather linked with a luke warm state which has eventually led to the weakening of the worldly church and awful corruption. We see the fruits of it all around us as this vacuum of indifference is being filled with, indifference,breakdown of society ,spread of Islamic expansionism and violent extremism in our midst.
    Also the breakdown of family life, as opposed to what was intended by God.

    Folks, like it or not - The writing was already on the wall back in JND's time. Thus JND moved in obedience to preserve the Saints from awful darkness and the coming judgement about to be poured out onto the earth. Separation from evil is the only basis for unity..That's becoming clearer week by week.
    Friendship with the world will never create conditions of unity or inner peace. Jesus said' l am the way, the truth and the life. Are we therefore prepared to suffer along with the people of God? It will mean loss in this world, yet much gain in Christ.
    You have been called, but will you obey his call? The choice is yours and mine.

    Ian's comments reflect the desire by many for an easier way. It's a turning away back to avoid God's claims over us. No grey areas or stain of sin in God's presence. Ah yes, The Lord Will rapture a pure bride, come what may.
    So Don't be fooled by these poor dim souls who are deceitfully trying to say you can have the world and Christ. It doesn't work folks - Period

    Pesky Peeb Outreach

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I completely agree that "the writing was already on the wall back in JND's time". However I think you and I view that writing from polar opposite perspectives! Hmm, "awful darkness and coming judgment"... I really do not know how Brethren can rest easy on that score, given how much hypocrisy they each practise on a routine basis. I can only think that their consciences have been dulled by the effects of a life spent within the confines of a cult. It makes me very sad, the huge loss of potential... Brethren individuals given over instead to insular personality-worship of their cult leaders. Forced to do so indeed, on pain of loss of family (and likely also job and home). Jesus wept.

      Delete
    2. PPO

      You say – “We see the fruits of it all around us as this vacuum of indifference is being filled with, indifference,breakdown of society ,spread of Islamic expansionism and violent extremism in our midst. Also the breakdown of family life, as opposed to what was intended by God.”

      What hypocritical double mindedness

      The Exclusive Plymouth Brethren under leaders such as JT Senior, JT Junior, Symington and B Hales have practiced and are STILL practicing –

      - Family breakdown by dividing and separating families if persons leave
      - Expansionism through building halls and focus on money and wealth
      - Extremism through printed hate ministry promoting death, suicide and poison
      - Spreading sectarianism through false teaching and twisting Gods Word the Bible
      - Indifference to the wreackage of broken families created by the PBCC
      - Indifference to the shameless twisting of Gods Word the Bible

      All of which is opposed to what was intended by God !

      PPO

      Your blind pride in your own sectarian agenda shows in every comment you make, it really is shameless, but also embarrassing to read, because everything you say also condemns the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren !, the very group you are vainly trying to support !

      Here’s another one,

      You say – “Friendship with the world will never create conditions of unity or inner peace. Jesus said' l am the way, the truth and the life. Are we therefore prepared to suffer along with the people of God? It will mean loss in this world, yet much gain in Christ”

      Again, what hypocritical double mindedness,

      It is the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren who practice friendship with the world and are not prepared to suffer loss in this world. The PBCC EB –

      - Lobbying MP’s, Government, Press, Charity Commission to gain wealth
      - Knock down your barns and building bigger ones (see Luke 12)
      - Sponging money from state
      - Thinking up devious schemes to ensure tax breaks
      - Changing previous leaders edicts about “no computers” if it means wealth gain
      - Changing previous leaders edits about “not giving to charity” if it means wealth gain
      - Changing their own “divine rules” about not eating or drinking with others if it means wealth gain

      PPO, yet again, your blind pride in your own sectarian agenda shows in every comment you make, it really is shameless, but also embarrassing to read, because everything you say also condemns the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren !, the very group you are vainly trying to support !

      Delete
    3. PPO,

      You say – “No grey areas or stain of sin in God's presence. Ah yes, The Lord Will rapture a pure bride, come what may.”

      If that is the case the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren cant be in Gods presence, nor can they be His pure bride.

      The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren is full of grey areas and the stain of sin and is very dirty and impure !

      - They change edicts, rules and “divine standards” all the time, especially if it means wealth gain, eg. computers, mobile phones, internet, headscarfs, praying and worship of the Holy Spirit, the eternal sonship question, eating and drinking with non members, association with other Christians, associations with relatives not in the group, etc etc This and much more are often grey areas !

      - James Taylor Juniors (former leader) behaviour during the 1960’s, introducing non biblical false teaching, being an alcoholic leader (banned in the Bible), womanising, being found in bed with another mans wife, being drunk in meetings, using foul language. This is very much the stain of sin and dirty and impure !

      - The broken and divided families created by the edicts, non biblical rules and twisting of Gods Word the Bible. This is very much the stain of sin and impure !

      PPO, yet again, your blind pride in your own sectarian agenda shows in every comment you make, it really is shameless, but also embarrassing to read, because everything you say also condemns the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren !, the very group you are vainly trying to support !

      Delete
    4. Pesky Peeb Outreach

      You quote similar to JND's pamphlet title 'Separation from evil is the only basis for unity'
      Could you please give a scripture for it?

      I ask because I generally regard JND as good, but I struggle with this title

      Consider this:
      Three friends are walking across a field to the shelter of a great oak tree. Harry starts telling dirty jokes, so Tom being religious separates from him 10 feet to the left. Dick also separates 10 feet to the right. Tom and Dick are now separate from the evil, but also 20 feet from each other!

      However if they both had gone to the oak tree, speaking typically of Christ, they would be united

      A better definition for unity I find, is in the drawing power of The Lord Jesus, John 12 v32,

      Luke

      Delete
  11. Pesky Peeb Outreach
    Good to hear from you again.
    My experience since leaving the Exclusive Brethren forty years ago has been that I have met and fellowshipped with hundreds of Christians who are separate morally from the world.I should add that some are quite horrified when they learn of the behaviour and practices of the Exclusive Brethren. Recently I was asked by a Christian acquaintance "Are these Exclusive Brethren saved?"
    I have also met missionaries who because of their witness for Christ have suffered persecution in the countries in which they were based.This is not "an easier way". It would be insulting and quite wrong to describe such persons as "friends of the world". Their spiritual state could not be described as lukewarm.
    The Exclusive Brethren aka the PBCC gave an undertaking to the Charity Commission that their practice of separation was to be moral and not physical as it has been in the past. Could you verify that this is in fact the case?
    This particular thread has identified some similarities between the Westboro Baptist Church and the Exclusive Brethren. What is your view on this? Are those similarities real or can you provide evidence to prove them false?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gal 22:49
      Let's stop right there in your first Paragraph.

      "SEPARATE MORALLY"

      Have you asked these people whether they have a TV and/or a Radio? The content is worsening day by day.
      When these poor people lay down at night, their spirits and souls have been filled with trash and violence. It's pure filth against everything that is good and proper.
      See here - Separation from evil also includes inventions used by the media to attack Christian values, ruin the family and then goes go on to break-down wider society.
      Such things are increasingly breaking-down normal daily interaction in the home and exposing children and young people to the very worst that this poor world can offer. The application of Moral Separation therefore must result in the refusal of evil in our lives and protection of the traditional family unit.

      That's the plain truth of the matter,
      whether we like to face it or not.
      You and I have to practice according to conscience and not compare or be occupied or turned aside by what others may say and do. Missionaries or not, we all have to obey God according to the light we have been given. So you and I are far more responsible.
      One can thus deduce you are likely trying to hide behind the lack of light found in people out in the world. Whatever people might claim, it doesn't remove our own personal responsibility before God. He holds us accountable as individuals.
      It's so abundantly clear many here don't accept the Principle of Separation because they are not prepared for the cost involved. The words of Jesus, 'Come follow me' demands we give-up those hateful and filthy things which rob God of his claims over us. 'The word is too hard' some would say.

      You have swallowed a Falsehood that God is going to permit you to dictate such terms as - 'Let's all compromise and make a mockery of the death of Christ?' No I think not. Get this into your dense matter and you might start to make progress.
      Remember - Refuse the Evil and choose the Good, not the other way round.

      Pesky Peeb Outreach

      Delete
    2. Thank you for your reply although I note you have declined to confirm or otherwise if the Exclusive Brethren practice PHYSICAL separation from those not in their fellowship. I also note that you state that separation from evil also includes inventions used by the media to attack Christian values. You are using one of those inventions to communicate with me!! It wasn't so long ago that remote garage door openers were banned by the Exclusive Brethren!
      My TV and Radio and those of my Christian friends who own them have on/off switches which we can use. I am also aware of reports of EB members having hid "evil" devices such as TVs in wardrobes, lofts etc.
      Perhaps you would elaborate on the "light" found in the EB that is not found in the world. It was precisely because of the so called "light" in the EB that I left following JT junior's infamous reading in Aberdeen on 25 July 1970. The Christians I now associate with would be aghast and horrified that such teaching could be regarded as "light".
      I have also had the opportunity to read some of the more recent examples of "light" originating from the Exclusive Brethren. It seems to vary from eulogising these "great Men" to discussing how to run your business. Many Christians would describe it to use your own word as "trash".
      Further information on the EB current interpretation of what separation means would be of interest especially to the Charity Commission.

      Delete
    3. PPO

      You Say – “Have you asked these people whether they have a TV and/or a Radio? The content is worsening day by day.”

      One of the key signs that a religious group (claiming to be Christian or not) is a sectarian separatist cult is that it makes petty rules and regulations about something minor and rigidly enforces them, often twisting religious text (in this case the Bible) to give a veneer of legitimacy. It uses these ‘new rules’ to appear ‘holier and more pious than others’ while often hiding the most devious, double minded and sinfull behaviours. It is precisely what the Pharisees did in Jesus day.

      And it is precisely what the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclsuive Brethren do.

      TV and Radio has an off switch. There is no need to make rules and regulations. If a person is a genuine Christian, they will instinctively know what content is appropriate or not. TV and Radio can be highly educational and informative, however if content is inappropriate then they have an Off Switch.

      PPO,

      Your statement is yet another example (if another was needed) of the real sectarian pharisaical nature of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren

      You Say – “When these poor people lay down at night, their spirits and souls have been filled with trash and violence. It's pure filth against everything that is good and proper.”

      May I remind you of the pure filth and trash inside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren, that is against everything good and proper.

      - Former leader James Taylor Junior in bed with another mans wife, drunk in bible discussions, womanising, and introducing false teaching and using foul language while in bible discussions.

      - Teaching to successive generations that such a leader as James Taylor Junior is a “pure man” and a “man of God”, despite his actions

      - Current leader Bruce Hales promoting death, shooting, hanging, suicide and poisoning.

      - Dividing families and separating husbands and wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters.

      - Being taught that excessive consumption of alcohol is a Christian action

      PPO,

      There is plenty of trash and pure filth inside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church, aka Exclusive Brethren. Your members souls and spirits are filled with it and you claim its “Christianity” ! shame on you !

      Delete
    4. PPO

      You Say – “You and I have to practice according to conscience and not compare or be occupied or turned aside by what others may say and do. Missionaries or not, we all have to obey God according to the light we have been given”

      Christians practice according to what the Bible teaches which is Gods sole Word. It is the Bible and the Bible alone that provides the guide. We all have to obey God according to what the Bible teaches.

      However,

      That is where the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren have gone badly wrong. They refer to what their leaders (past and present) say about particular Bible passages and are taught to treat those commentaries as “authoritative” and as “light” even when they are obviously contradictory of the Bible.

      The Jehovah’s Witnesses teach their members the same, they have to obey the “light” that the Watchtower teaches, yet their “light” is also contradictory of the Bible.

      All the cults and separatist sects outside of the Body of Christ are the same, they all teach that members must also obey their “light” in addition to the Bible.

      Sorry PPO but your supposed “Light” is nothing of the kind because it contradicts and twists what Gods Word teaches in the Bible, therefore it is not light at all, it is darkness.

      PPO

      You Say – “The words of Jesus, 'Come follow me' demands we give-up those hateful and filthy things which rob God of his claims over us. 'The word is too hard' some would say.”

      There are millions of Christians (outside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren) who follow the words of Jesus “come follow me” and obey His commands.

      Yet, you and the PBCC aka EB separate from them all under your doctrine of “separation from evil” simply because they are not part of your group !

      That is opposed to what was intended by God !
      It is also opposed to what your founder JNDarby taught

      Think of that, you and the PBCC aka EB are saying to other Christians who follow Jesus and obey His commands that “we separate from you because you are “Evil” !

      God will hold the PBCC aka EB to account for that.

      Delete
    5. Rev dear Friend

      Thank you for your two responses to PPO.

      See the Truth provokes a reaction. That's better

      than indifference and it means that God is

      speaking to your conscience. Grace is still

      available and we are ready to serve you.

      Matthew

      Delete
    6. Rev, thy comments have been noted and then
      dispersed by the All Powerful Fart of God.
      Don't be too cast down, for thou shalt be
      caught-up by Divine Wind to dwell with
      70 fair and voluptuous virgins for eternity.
      I have personally written to the Pontiff
      of Rome to also have you listed as a Saint :)

      Graham

      Delete
    7. The TV and Radio also have ON Switches.
      and this is when the shite is channeled into
      the Home. It damages, divides and is directly
      against the Holy Ghost.

      Shame on you Rev

      Delete
    8. Anon 21 April at 20:55

      You say “this is when the shite is channeled into the Home. It damages, divides and is directly against the Holy Ghost”

      Your wild unsubstantiated statements only serve to highlight the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren ignorance because you are trying to speak about something you know nothing about.

      An example,

      Last night there was a program on UK TV about the Queen and her life (her 90th Birthday), then I saw a program about the history of the industrial revolution. Last week I saw a program about archaeology including the Romans and Biblical times. While staying away on business earlier this week I watched a Christian program including praise and worship to Christ our Saviour

      Please explain why any of that is –

      “ shite is channeled into the Home. It damages, divides and is directly against the Holy Ghost”

      When you speak from a position of total ignorance such as the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren members do, you only embarrass yourself and the group you try to defend.

      Your comments are a result of utter ignorance which arises from a cultish sectarian separation which has ‘Nothing’ to do with Christianity at all.

      Delete
    9. Let us be clear, the EB (PBCC) have so many devices about their persons, these days, and are so preoccupied with worldly wealth and worldly addictions, such as alcohol, that the only thing left for them to bang on about is TV and radio. Knowing the pharisaical hypocrisy that abounds among the *saints, I would imagine that many are accessing all the media slurry they desire on their mini *pipelines of filth*.

      Porn under the duvet and no contraception! No wonder they are buying up land to build more and more installations.

      Should have stuck to *Gardeners'Question Time* on BBC radio.

      Lord Reith

      Delete
  12. Which brings us back to what Christ himself did while on earth Pesky PO.He did NOT separate himself from the world. He ministered IN IT! So according to your current stance and doctrine - Christ was wrong. Nor did Darby separate himself from the world. Indeed - neither did JT Snr. So they are all wrong. Explain that for me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon 19 April at 03:46

      I agree with your comments, however, just a small correction if I may.

      You say - “Nor did Darby separate himself from the world. Indeed - neither did JT Snr.”

      James Taylor Senior most certainly did advocate separation from the world around and from all other Christians outside the Exclusive Brethren.

      It was James Taylor Senior that laid the foundations for his son Taylor Junior to take the group down an every increasing cultic sectarianism.

      It was James Taylor Senior who introduced the drinking of whisky as he liked it himself, his son then took that to the next level.

      It was James Taylor Senior who enforced strict separation from all other Christians in aspects of worship and communion at the Lords Table, just look at the Watchman Nee China matter in 1934. The content of the letters James Taylor Senior wrote during this period are shockingly seperatist and sectarian and full of pharasaical spiritual arrogant pride. His son took that to the next level

      It was James Taylor Senior who enforced no marriage outside the group. He taught that marrying anyone outside the group even if they were a Christian was to “marry dead bones” and it would “weaken the fellowship”. His son took that to the next level

      If you read James Taylor Seniors ministry it is often horrifically sectarian.

      If you would like to discuss this further please contact me on emailtherev@gmail.com

      Delete
    2. Rev, your post really make me chuckle helplessly, as indeed do all your nonsensical posts here.
      I refer to your dumb reply to poor Anon, April 19 @ 03:46. A big smokescreen which says 'I want to avoid the cost of holding fast to what is True'

      It helps to be honest when discussing separation from the world means. Walking in Separation is a continuous or progressive matter and requires us to be obedient. You can't claim to walk with Christ, if you have friendship with the world.
      'Friendship with the world is Enmity with God'
      Christ was 100% sinless and he was not tainted by those he came into contact with. (he could not sin) He was in that sense unique and set-apart or separate for the Glory of the Father. God provided his son because he couldn't look on sin. Jesus died on the Cross, so that we may be set free from sin and the sins of the world from Adam up till today. Thus it's crystal clear that (Walking in Separation) is a progressive thing of which we either reject or accept. The Great Men of the Recovery have led the Saints away from the world and this is still going on today.

      Being a Christian thus requires us to move forward (walk) and shake-off everything in this world which hinders our relationship with God.
      Paul shook off the dust from his feet and left behind the spirit of the world.

      The 'Net of Refinement' so to speak, strains-out those who are not prepared for the way -
      'The Word is hard, who can hear it' they murmur.

      Ahhhh you see - A Little Birdy tells us, you want the best of both worlds...Is that correct?
      It's a really a false position and an insult to the death of Christ, who did not his own will, but the will of the father. It involved cost Rev and that means it will also cost you something if you move forward. Imposing your own self will means you are going away back.

      See - Egypt is ruined Rev. Why hanker after it?

      Delete
    3. To Anon 24 April at 16:27

      You Say -
      “I refer to your dumb reply to poor Anon, April 19 @ 03:46….”

      There was nothing ‘dumb’ in my reply to Anon April 19 @ 03:46. It was factual information, evidenced in your own written ministry, the actual historical letters of your former leader James Taylor Senior and published ministry of James Taylor Senior ! (for example – read his booklet ‘marriage in the lord’ a misnomer if ever there was one)

      Are you saying all that evidence is ‘dumb’ ?

      You say –
      “It helps to be honest when discussing separation from the world means. Walking in Separation is a continuous or progressive……”

      Honesty is not a trait found much amongst Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren, as this blog shows

      ‘Separation’ in the manner PBCC EB practice it, is NOT found in Gods Word the Bible. - There, is that honest enough for you !

      Gods Word the Bible does NOT teach the PBCC EB to –

      - Keep strict separation from ALL other Christians and Churches
      - Refuse to worship, fellowship or sit at the Lords Table with Any other Christians
      - Refuse to eat or drink with Any other Christians
      - Refuse to engage in missionary or outreach work with Any other Christians
      - Withdraw from those who visit another Christian Church service
      - Declare those Christians who leave as ‘unfit for Christian fellowship’
      - Divide families if a Christian leaves the group to go to another Christian Church
      - etc etc

      Gods Word the Bible teaches the ‘Opposite’ of these practices !

      The PBCC EB practice these and much more, but this type of ‘Separation’ is NOT found in Gods Word the Bible and is NOT required to be a genuine Christian.

      All your attempts to link Christianity, Christ and Salvation to the type of ‘Separation’ practiced by you, the PBCC EB, are futile, because Gods Word the Bible does NOT teach what you practice !

      You say –
      “The Great Men of the Recovery have led the Saints away from the world and this is still going on today”

      Now that’s a more honest comment. It is ‘men’ who led the PBCC EB down the path they are on, NOT Christ and Bible teaching, but the teaching of ‘Men’ !. The type of ‘Separation you practice is NOT from Gods Word the Bible but is found in the teaching of men !

      You Say –
      “See - Egypt is ruined Rev. Why hanker after it?”

      The hypocrisy of your statement is stunning. The PBCC EB teach that ‘Everything’ outside the walls of the PBCC EB is Egypt.

      Yet, they plunder Egypt for - wealth, bigger meeting rooms, more tax concessions, more tax avoidance schemes, bigger businesses, more money, more commerce, more business, more trade, more sales, bigger houses, bigger cars, they even have a body corporate to manage the brethrens business called UBT or Universal Business Team. The PBCC EB have ‘Business Seminars’ where Church and Business merge into one and they changed their so called “divine rules” to allow previously banned items such as - Computers, Internet, Fax Machines, Mobile Telephones, etc all because they realised they could make more money !

      It is the PBCC EB who ‘hanker’ after Egypt !

      Delete
  13. Separation from evil as God's principle of unity was the notion promoted by J N Darby when he wanted C19 Christians to leave the established and dissenting churches and join with him in his ideal, non-clerical Christian community. He often quoted Jeremiah 15:19 and 2 Timothy 2:19 because he felt that those verses supported his ecclesiastical requirements. For example, in 1846 he wrote, “I cannot touch the unclean, as I am to separate the precious from the vile.” (Letters, Vol 1 p 95)

    The context of the Jeremiah reference shows that the prophet had been complaining to God about his personal situation and the Lord replied telling him to buck up, stop talking nonsense and start proclaiming a worthwhile message again. The “vile” refers to the prophet’s own ministry, his spoken message/oracle, and not at all to the people to whom he was speaking. Similarly, the 2 Timothy 2:19 verse requires believers themselves to withdraw from committing illegal and unjust acts (‘adikia’ in Greek). This accords with the clear teaching of Jesus about the wrongness of paying attention to ecclesiastical matters, however worthy, while neglecting justice and the love of God. (Luke 11:42). Jesus would have known the Jeremiah reference which J N Darby quoted and he reinforced it adamantly, “it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.” (Matthew 15:11)

    It’s worth reading Colossians 3:1-17. Verse 14 in that chapter says, “Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony”. Love, then, is the biblical and Christian principle of unity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To Pesky Peeb: To add to Joan's comment about your assertion that "separation being the basis of unity" I am afraid I cannot trace that direct teaching in the Bible (I may be wrong). But what I DO find is clear teaching that unity of true believing Christians is found in Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit, as:

      Eph 4:1-6
      I, the prisoner in [the] Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called,
      2 with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love;
      3 using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.
      4 [There is] one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling;
      5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
      6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.
      Darby

      The unity is the unity of the Spirit of Christ; we are all of one body - his church (assembly).

      When Christ died for the Christian's sins, God also judged the sinful nature of the Christian. You will find this clearly laid out in Romans Chs 6 and 7. I recommend using a version in modern English rather than that of 500 years ago. Jesus Christ said "none shall pluck them out of my hand" (John 10) no matter what Mr Bruce may question a person's salvation.

      Thus the basis of unity is Christ and none other.

      Hopefully helpful.
      Phil T.

      Delete
    2. Adding to what Joan and Phil have said, it is very obvious that separation has not achieved unity: rather the opposite.

      Those various sects that practise separation, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, Moonies, the Children of God, The Family, Seventh-Day Adventists, Westborough Baptist Church, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Brisbane Christian Fellowship, etc. are poles apart, and the Exclusive branches of the Brethren have undergone multiple schisms throughout their history.

      To say that separation is God’s principle of unity is like saying warfare is God’s principle of peace, or poverty is God’s principle of prosperity, or brutality is God’s principle of compassion. It is neither scriptural nor rational nor is it supported by experience. It is an empty slogan and nothing else.

      Delete
    3. Phil T.

      Thank you for your watered-down version.

      We cannot claim unity in Christ

      if we are not prepared to obey his word.

      That also includes separation from Evil.

      Would you not agree?

      Matthew

      Delete
    4. SORRY to say this, but I think if we
      honestly search our hearts, we can only
      arrive at one right conclusion.
      Pesky Peeb and Matthew is 100%
      correct to say we cannot claim unity if
      we are not obedient to the word of God.
      To claim unity, whilst choosing an
      easier way, is not unity at all.
      The broad way leads to destruction.
      Following Christ is not easy and it
      involves reproach for standing-up
      for what is true and rejecting sin.
      Can we can agree to disagree
      or claim there is honour
      among thieves and liars?

      The Demise of the Churches.
      Hmmmm, ever wondered Why?

      Much of today's chaos is the end result
      of these 'churches' or so called
      clergy, systematically watering-down the
      truth of scripture to suit the PC agenda.
      This is now so blatant in the Western World,
      that Christians from other parts of the globe
      are rightly alarmed. Many are calling
      for separation and protection from
      such a departure from christian principles.
      A watering down of the truth is spelling
      a great disaster for our society, yet
      some don't have the Moral Balls to
      confront it head-on.
      Why is that?

      Concerned member of the
      public speaking out on
      behalf of real Christians - Thank you.

      Delete
    5. Two or three of y'all have above suggested that obedience to the word of God is important in the context of Chritian unity. Could you tell me where I can get a copy of that word, or is it only available to a select few?

      12 Mini

      Delete
    6. To. Concerned Member of the public speaking out on behalf of real Christians
      I too would like to hear more of where we can obtain a copy of "the word of God". Like many Christians I consider the bible alone to be God's Word.
      I agree that many but not all churches are dwindling in numbers In many countries e.g. China the church is growing at a faster rate than it ever did in the western world. How fast is the Exclusive Brethren Church growing when the unusually high birthrate of that church is discounted? How many people from "outside" have joined in the past 50 years? Is a high birthrate considered to be a normal means of church growth particularly when children in the EB have no choice - they break bread when they are "babes in arms" and thus are considered members of the church with little opportunity to leave.
      An evangelical church grows through the spreading of Christ's message of salvation and persons coming into a personal relationship with Him. I am aware of such churches and indeed am a member of one so I do not share your pessimism.

      Delete
    7. Anon 20 April at 16:55 (Matthew)

      You Say – “We cannot claim unity in Christ if we are not prepared to obey his word. That also includes separation from Evil.”

      Oops,
      Yet another own goal and hypocrisy

      Your statement causes you and the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren a big problem doesn’t it !.

      The PBCC EB does NOT obey Gods Word the Bible and does NOT separate from evil !!

      The PBCC EB disobey & ignore Gods Word regards the following –

      - The One Body
      - Accepting other Christians
      - How to treat other Christians
      - Eating with others
      - Warnings against false teaching
      - Warnings against sectarianism
      - Baptism
      - The real meaning of salvation (the ‘whosoever’ in John 3v16)
      - Freedom of individual Christian conscience
      - The real meaning of separation
      - The Lords Table
      - Fellowship
      - Freedom and operations of the Holy Spirit
      - Elders and qualifications for eldership
      - Warnings against “disputing over words”
      - Dealings with immorality
      - Dealing with discipline, error and false teaching
      - Discernment and spiritual intelligence
      - The whole of the Biblical Apostle Pauls ministry
      - Marriage
      - Warnings against extra biblical rules edicts, whims and fancies
      - Warnings against twisting or adding to the Word of God which is the Bible
      - and much more

      The PBCC EB do not separate from evil because they –

      - Had a former leader who was an alcoholic, womaniser found in bed with another mans wife, who introduced false teaching, was drunk in meetings and used foul language in meetings but they didn’t separate from evil from him. No they teach that he was a “pure man” !

      - Have a current leader Bruce Hales who promotes death, shooting, suicide, hanging and poison in supposed christian meetings and in printed so called ‘ministry’, but they haven’t separated from evil from him !

      - Divide families, separating husbands and wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters but they haven’t separated from evil from that !

      - Promote the evils and sin of sectarianism by separating from the rest of the Body of Christ and refusing to worship, fellowship or have communion at the Lords Table with ANY Christians outside their group, but they haven’t separated from evil from that !

      Anon 20 April at 16:55 (Matthew)

      So you see your statement cause the PBCC aka EB quite a problem

      The PBCC EB must be very good at self condemnation and hypocrisy because their supporters comments condemn the very group they think they are defending !

      Delete
    8. Anon 20 April at 20:12
      (who calls themselves “Concerned member of the public speaking out on behalf of real Christians”)

      Firstly, no concerned members of the public speaking out on behalf of real Christians could possibly ever support the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren if they knew the real practices and doctrines of the group. So your either very misinformed and swallowing the PBCC EB propaganda without looking into the facts (in itself not a Christian action because the Bible teaches we are to test what persons say, research and compare it to Biblical teaching), or you are a member of the PBCC EB and are in fact trying to hoodwink readers.

      You say – “The Demise of the Churches………”

      The trouble with PBCC EB members is that they are taught they can make any wild claims about anything without needing to explain, or justify or provide real evidence for their statements.

      Your comments about the Churches is one such wild statement because it contains half truths and wild inaccurate statements.

      It maybe true that the main denominations (here in the UK - C of E or Church of Scotland etc) are in decline, however you fail to say that other denominations or those of no denominational affiliation are increasing in number.

      For example, many thousands have left the Church of Scotland and joined non denominational churches. The FIEC is growing as is the EMW.

      But you wouldn’t know that because PBCC EB are taught to be separate to the rest of the body of Christ.

      There are many hundreds of Godly Pastors, Elders, Deacons in evangelical churches who have stood up for Biblical truth in the last 5 years or so. These are not the “clergy” you speak of.

      1. The description “Clergy” generally would refer to those in clerical robes of office wearing symbols and using incense and would be found in the main denominations.

      2. There are many thousands of genuine Christian Churches who have no such clerical system, but have biblically appointed Pastors, Elders and Deacons who wear non of the items described above.

      Yet, PBCC EB use the title “Clergy” to denigrate both groups 1 and 2, despite the fact that the Bible describes the qualifications and appointment of Pastors, Elders and Deacons.

      But of course the ignorant Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren don’t really know these facts because they are taught to “separate from evil” from All other Christians and Churches, so when a PBCC EB member speaks of these matters its from a position of total ignorance.

      Delete
    9. Anon 20 April at 20:12
      (who calls themselves “Concerned member of the public speaking out on behalf of real Christians”)
      & Matthew
      & PPO

      Is suicide acceptable? or is it evil?

      Thomas

      Delete
    10. Thomas,
      I think you are being disingenuous.
      You already know the answer as would
      anyone with a conscience.
      Suicide is a selfish and lawless action.
      Nobody supports suicide - Period

      Delete
    11. I would like -
      “Concerned member of the public speaking out on behalf of real Christians”
      & Matthew
      & PPO

      to consider the question and give an answer

      Thomas

      Delete
    12. To Anon 27Apr 18:21
      Suicide is not lawless or against the law, and it is not always done for selfish motives. Also it is not true to say nobody supports suicide. You know not of which you speak, nor of how obviously your Brethrenistic style shows up your arrogant thinking habits. Other views are available.

      Delete
  14. I wonder if BDH gets to read these comments made by his faithful followers? If so, he must be cringing deeply - imagine the anguish of a cult leader watching his followers revealing all this nonsense to the wide world and threatening his cosy and wealthy position at the top! Presumably has his spies out trying to identify the culprits. Maybe they will be next for the rat poison. Be careful what you are given to drink, Brethren, be very very careful. I suggest you pour it out of the whisky bottle yourselves!

    RLS

    ReplyDelete
  15. PPO,

    Among the various bits of Brethren dogma that you recite, you say,

    “Thus JND moved in obedience to preserve the Saints from awful darkness and the coming judgement about to be poured out onto the earth.”

    This depends on Darby’s particular way of interpreting prophetic scriptures, and his is not a particularly plausible interpretation. Most Bible scholars do not agree with him. Some of the prophetic scriptures that refer to coming disaster are clearly about the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies, and the subsequent persecution of Jews and Christians. That happened hundreds of years ago. Darby almost certainly got it wrong by projecting it all into the future.

    We know that the Earth will eventually be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt with fervent heat, but that is due to occur about 7 billion years from now, not next week.

    The awful darkness that you refer to has not happened either, and shows no sign of happening. The long-term and short-term trend is that the human race is becoming progressively more enlightened, and learning how to live at peace with one another. Crime rates in most countries are near their all-time low, and even the violence of war has shown a long-term, consistent, downward trend. Christianity has never stopped spreading, and other civilizing influences such as education, the rule of law, and the recognition of human rights are spreading too.

    I’m afraid you have been too ready to swallow Brethren propaganda without examining it closely enough.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 7 billion years eh? Ha ha ha ha
      Plucked that figure from outer space Ian? Certainly not from the Bible. What an utterly nonsensical statement.
      The same type of non factual atheistic crap that Richard Dawkins spouts to darken men and snuff-out God.

      Carry on dreaming lan dear :)
      You and Rev are a real pair of dumbos ha ha ha ha ha ha

      Delete
    2. Like Anonymous 26 April 2016 at 09:53, I was at first surprised by the figure of 7 billion years because I'd previously understood that our sun is about half way through its life span of 10 or 11 billion years, so that would mean that there's about 5 or so billion more to go.

      Nevertheless, I'm pretty shocked by the tone of this Anonymous contributor's posting. He doesn't seem to know that the Bible is not a scientific book.

      It's always thrilling to learn more about the wonderful universe of which we're such a minuscule part and I'm sad that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren seems to deride the study of cosmology.

      Delete
    3. There was indeed an earlier rough estimate that our sun had about 5 billion years of its 10-billion year life still to run, but more detailed observations and refinement of the physical models have led to the current estimate that it will not become a red giant and destroy the Earth until about 7 billion years from now. This timetable has been generally accepted since 2008.

      This estimate might still be tweaked a little, but it cannot be dismissed merely because it doesn’t suit someone’s prejudices. The evidence from other stars and from the laws of physics leave little room for doubt. Because of the time it takes for light to reach us from distant objects, and the time it takes for new stars to form, we can even now observe astronomical objects of many different ages ranging from about 100 million years in the case of the Pleiades Cluster to more than 10 billion years for some very distant galaxies, so we know how stars and galaxies change with age.

      Although the Bible is not a book of science, sometimes it gets the facts of science right. It was right about the universe having a beginning; it was right about light existing before the sun or stars; it is right when it says that the elements, burning with heat, shall melt. But to take every biblical statement that looks like a prediction and interpret it literally and infallibly shows a misunderstanding of what the Bible is and what it is for. The Brethren sometimes even go further than that, treating the rash predictions of their leaders in the same way.

      That is a mistake, because since JTJr, their universal leaders have known almost nothing about science and surprisingly little about the Bible.

      Delete
    4. Joan at 10:29 and Ian - HOW DARK Can you get?

      I suggest you are both in rather serious error.
      Your statements are a classical case of unbelief and error through the darkness of Academia.
      The Academic Mind (Natural Reasoning) more often than not, sets itself up against God's wisdom.
      Moreover, your idea of science is really BAD science..In fact, NOT science at all. Much of so called 'science' is unproven theory or absolutely nonsensical speculation from the likes of people such as Dawkins. That man knows better deep down
      ,but has turned his back on the light he had.
      He has dug himself a Great Black Hole (Excuse the pun) by taking God out of the equation.
      Pride is often the bedfellow of Academia or the academic mindset. To exclude God from our views or calculations is the first major mistake of any 'intelligent' person. He or she becomes a fool.
      The Bible is not only Truth, but also an Absolute Divine Authority of how creation came into being.
      There are also thousands of well respected scientists around the world who are Christians, so if you both claim to know God, I suggest it's much better and far wiser to drop such silly ideas and start to think on moral lines.
      Such statements in these times show how deep the
      decline has set-in with western countries who once had a certain respect for Christian values.
      Christian values are clearly under attack and
      so it makes it all the more offensive when people make statements in order to water-down the Truth of the Holy Bible.

      Concerned Member of The Public

      Delete
    5. Concerned Member of The Public

      Joan and I seem to have upset you in some way, for which I am sorry. What exactly have we said that you disagree with? What part of it do you think is incompatible with Christianity?

      I can see how a solar system that is set to continue for billions of years will clash with the Brethren’s oft-repeated declaration that the destruction of the world is imminent, but it does not clash with Christianity at all. The Bible and cosmologists agree that heaven and earth will pass away, and the main difference is that science puts a date on it while the Bible does not. There is no good religious reason to believe that the destruction of planet Earth is imminent. That is only one of the many man-made scare stories that a minority of religious leaders use to keep their flock under their control.

      You are right when you say that there are thousands of well-respected scientists around the world who are Christians. That alone serves to show that science and Christianity can live happily together, sharing their noble aspiration to search out the truth. Indeed, most of the rich flowering of science that began in the 18th century was conducted by Christians, who believed that our universe is governed by consistent, apparently unchanging laws, and passionately wanted to know what these laws are, partly, of course, for their practical applications, but also because they might give us a better understanding of the Lawgiver.

      So science has great cultural value as well as great practical value. Most Christians welcome it, celebrate it and thank God for it.

      I don’t think people like Dawkins have done any damage to Christianity. The brands of religion that he draws most of his examples from and condemns in strong language are those based on lots of ignorance, deceit, superstition and cruelty. By exposing their inconsistencies and harmful effects he arguably has helped to strengthen Christianity by forcing people of faith to confront their inconsistencies and discard the unfortunate baggage that some of their systems of belief have collected. Thus, many Christians who formerly based their faith on fragile foundations such as fundamentalism, which has no hope of long-term survival, now base their faith on stronger, more durable foundations, such love of God and love of neighbour.

      I do not agree that a deep decline has set in with Western countries. Respect for Christian values has never been so widespread. Our disagreement possibly lies in the fact that you and I have completely different ideas about what Christian values actually are.

      Delete
    6. Ignorance, deceit, superstition and cruelty rather sums up the Exclusive Brethren (PBCC).

      Ignorance: lack of scholarship and learning.
      Deceit: telling lies eg to maintain charitable status.
      Superstition: bizarre beliefs re garage door openers, bar codes etc etc.
      Cruelty: breaking up families, separation etc.

      Delete
  16. Ian,

    Forgive my brash manner and unstudied ignorance, but I find some of your comments to be somewhat comical.

    Did Darby really "project it all into the future", or would that only be believed by those who have not read his work?
    Then too, I wonder if you could share your source for knowing the approximate timing when the earth will be destroyed with fire?

    12 Mini

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No problem, 12 Mini, you are unconditionally forgiven, even without a “priestly” visit.

      When Darby comments on any of the biblical prophecies of disaster he always takes them to refer to events in our future. If you don’t want to read his voluminous writings to confirm this, you will find a comparison between his prophetic interpretations and those of other scholars in the paper Prophetic Developments by F. Roy Coad, which you can download from http://www.brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

      The study of stars similar to our sun but of different ages, along with a knowledge of stellar mechanics has led to the prediction that the sun will expand to a red giant with about 2,730 times its present brightness when it is about 12 billion years old, which is in about 7 billion years from now. That would be enough to melt the Earth and possibly engulf it. This is not particularly disputed. The calculations have been checked and confirmed by independent researchers. One of the many papers on the subject is Schröder, K.-P.; Connon Smith, Robert (2008), "Distant future of the Sun and Earth revisited", Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 386 (1): 155–163

      Delete
    2. Thanks Ian, one more PV I could not abide... So how do you view the comments toward the end of the book of Revelation that speak of the One upon the great white throne from whose face the heavens and Earth fled, and the the reference to a new heavens and Earth? There seems to be reference in that section to a thousand years.
      12 Mini

      Delete
    3. OK, 12 Mini, no more priestly visits.

      The book of Revelation describes a vision, not an actual account of events. It was written to encourage Christians who were experiencing dreadful persecution. It is rich in symbolism, and symbols are not supposed to be taken literally. Their message is deliberately suggestive, not explicit or definitive.

      The great white throne symbolises the fact that we are all accountable for our actions, and the brutal persecutors of Christians would eventually reap their just deserts.

      When the author writes about a new heaven and a new earth he was probably not thinking of the end of the solar system; he was more probably thinking of the end of the existing world order, which to him probably meant the end of the brutal Roman Empire, and the creation of a new world order in which good government and justice will prevail. The thousand years is probably a metaphor for a very long time, not a literal timetable.

      The poet and visionary William Blake in his most famous hymn sees the New Jerusalem not as something created by miraculous fiat, but as something that you and I help to build. This is utterly different from Darby’s interpretation, but I find it morally and intellectually much more appealing than Darby’s policy of opting out.

      Delete
    4. The New Scientist magazine seems to have joined our conversation. The issue dated 7th May has as its main article an account of the remote past and remote future of Life, Planet Earth and our Sun. The front cover says, “Last Days of Earth: Portrait of our Planet 7 Billion Years from Now.”

      The article is much more readable than the one I cited in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society. It has the title Swansong Earth, is written by Andy Ridgeway and begins on page 28. It provides a simple synopsis of the present state of knowledge of the life history and future of our little bit of the universe. It does not contradict Christianity.

      Delete
    5. I recommend a book by Lucie Green, published by Penguin Viking in 2016, entitled "15 Million Degrees - A Journey to the Centre of the Sun".

      Professor Lucie Green is a solar physicist at UCL's (University College London) Mullard Space Science Laboratory and she's written a book for the general reader which is accessible, funny and informative. I don't have a scientific brain, but I've found the physics in this book comprehensible and it's confirmed my awe at the wonder of creation.

      This paragraph from inside the book's front cover will give you some sense of the ground she covers:

      "Light takes eight minutes to reach Earth from the surface of the Sun. But its journey within the Sun takes hundreds of thousands of years. What is going on in there? What are light and heat? How does the Sun produce them and how on earth did scientists discover this?"

      I've appreciated the book so much that I've ordered two more copies for birthday presents for friends this year.

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  17. SEPARATION DOES MATTER:

    In a Nutshell, we do all agree on the following

    - There can be no unity without separation from evil
    - There is no unity without two walking in agreement
    - There cannot be darkness where the light is shining
    - Friendship with the world is enmity with God
    - Separation from the world is God's principle of unity
    - The broad way is compromise and leads to destruction
    - Agreeing to disagree is moral stagnation and a sham
    - We cannot claim to love Christ if we love the world
    - Being a real christian today involves separation
    - Loving Christ means being hated by the world
    - There is only one truth and one way to go
    - Christ is free to come to only one place
    - Freedom in Christ is not doing our own will
    - Coming to Christ as you are, doesn't mean any old how

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    1. I think there is a typo in your first line. You say "we do all agree..." I presume you mean to ask "do we all agree..." As it stands it sounds a bit arrogant and peeby, but I am sure it's just a slip. Just thought I would highlight it in case any others thought it was not a question but the rant of a biggot.

      Matt E

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    2. Do you see Demas coming into this, in some way?

      Frontrow Striver

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    3. Anon 24 April at 19.07
      "Christ is free to come to only one place"
      Which scripture would support that opinion?

      "coming to Christ as you are doesn't mean any old how"
      Please read Matthew 11 verse 28. Christ changes people. He doesn't expect us to change before coming to Him.All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. If the Exclusive Brethren preach otherwise it is a false gospel.

      Most of the above are meaningless EB cliches. eg Being a real Christian today involves separation. Would that be the EB 's interpretation of what separation means. Husbands leaving wives; children never seeing their grandparents. Not meeting or eating with other Christians.
      The EB are a distortion and perversion of Christianity.

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    4. Dear Anonymous 24 April 2016 at 19:07 SEPARATION DOES MATTER,

      I happened to read the posting above, in which you justify separation, moments after I’d been reading Luke’s Gospel 10:25-37.

      You probably remember that Jesus, who here was addressed as “Teacher”, did what all good teachers do and replied with a question to the lawyer who was trying to test him.

      The lawyer’s question: “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”

      You’ll notice that Jesus didn’t mention separation in his first response. Knowing that the lawyer was almost certainly an expert in the law, Jesus asked, “What is written in the law?” The answer came readily: (from Deuteronomy 6:5, the shema), “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind and (from Leviticus 19:18) your neighbour as yourself.”

      Jesus replied, “You have given the right answer; do this and you will live.”

      Eager to “justify himself”, however, the lawyer continued, “And who is my neighbour?” Again, the brilliance of Jesus the teacher is recorded when he told a story to illustrate what he wanted to teach. Two thousand years later people still recall that narrative.

      Separation now comes into the story as the separatist Jerusalem priest and Levite, fearing contamination from the stripped, half-dead body of the road rage victim, “passed by on the other side”.

      In contrast, Jesus commended the generosity and mercy of a northern, Samaritan man who, though despised in the region of Jerusalem and Jericho, behaved lovingly and courteously towards his southern neighbour.

      Jesus asked, “Which of these three, do you think, was neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” The lawyer said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise”.

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    5. "There is no unity without two walking in agreement" -- Indeed, as it is said in Amos 3:3, but then who is there speaking, and who are the two He is speaking of?
      Yes Anon, this is a good section of scripture. Do we there learn how God feels about transgressions and disobedience? Do we there learn how God cannot walk with even his chosen people who have demonstrated their disagreement with Him through their disobedience?
      3000 souls added in one day? A powerful demonstration I would say. "Make way for the gifts" said Darby, and the PB movement grew rapidly for a short time. "No more specialists" said Taylor Jr (or so I hear) and the disagreement with, and abandonment by God was spurred on.
      How singularly similar to Amos 2:11 and 12!
      Yes Anon, there can be no fellowship of light with darkness. God hates putting away, and the Bible insists on the maintenance of marriage on the part of the believing partner, yet Taylor Jr. (According to Symington) insists that separation of husband and wife must be moral, legal, and physical.
      This top down and pervasive disagreement with God is very likely one of the reasons he no longer walks with the brethren in any corporate sense.

      Wake up and smell the coffee.

      12 Mini

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    6. So in summary of all comments, we do all agree -
      It all comes back to Demas wanting an easier way.
      He left Paul having loved the present age.
      Aaah, the world is attractive, yet it will only
      pierce us through with many sorrows. 'Egypt is ruined' But are we living as if there is no tomorrow?

      We can thus only agree with the
      above statement because it's in the Bible :)

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    7. Interesting you use the words "pierce us through with many sorrows". This is the condition the apostle Paul highlights and it is the love of money that brings it about?

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    8. Anonymous 26 April 2016 at 21 26
      Interesting you use the words "pierce us through with many sorrows", this is the condition the apostle Paul highlights and is brought about through the the love of money!

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  18. 1 2 Mini Better still, wake up and let Christ shine out of you, he opens the blind eyes of religion, there are just 3 "great men" that i know of, my heavenly Father,wonderful Jesus who died for me, (no other "great man" so called, has) and the great comforter and teacher, the Holy Spirit.

    Lets drink that in.

    Bro

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    1. Yes Bro, the drinkers got it and the thinkers missed it. ( drunk that is)
      Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.---knowing that he who has raised the Lord Jesus shall raise us also with Jesus, and shall present us with you.---- For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory;

      12 mini

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  19. You know what? I am confused. These comments that are supposed to relate to the story above- have nothing to do with the story. It is the old Peeb curve ball of quotes and smoke and mirrors - with badly conceived ideas and so- called supporting doctrine. From the dodgy leaders of this Sect. The Brethren today cannot form a coherent, honest argument. When the chink in their Armour is revealed - they become abusive and irrational. How about you discuss what has been said in this article honestly. Tear it to shreds by all means - but discuss it! But - the Brethren cannot do that can they. Why? Because they are so deluded that they cannot see the truth anymore. Like Shirley Phelps you can quote scripture until the cows come home. But is doesn't change what you really are does it? Haters - and you have even lost sight of what you should hate. So we cannot trust or believe a word you say.

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