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Thursday, 11 June 2015

The pecking order is still alive and well in PBCC land


 

Walk into most places of worship today - and they are basically all the same - not set our necessarily based on the importance of any individual parishioner - but set out to hear about and worship God. I say - most - because there are three exceptions. Synagogues have a pecking order and a separate area for women, Mosques have a system that separates the men from the women and the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (formerly the Exclusive Brethren)- have, not only a layout to keep the women well back,  but the key jostlers for power well up the front. In key seats as it were.

 

With Synagogues the reason for keeping men and women quite separate in the house of worship is both venerable and tightly articulated. A Sydney Rabbi says this of the system that keeps the two genders apart in Jewish 'churches'.  "Women and men are very different beings. Not only are we physically different; our thought processes, emotional states and psychology are all different. This is because our souls are different - they come from complementary but opposite sources. The prayer experience is supposed to be an opportunity to be with your true self, to communicate with your soul. Men and women need space from each other to help them become in-tuned to their higher selves. Ironically, it is by sitting separately in prayer that we are able to truly come together in the other areas of our lives; because it is only when both male and female spiritual energies are allowed to flourish that we are complete as individuals, families and a community."

 

Whether this flies in the face of a world determined to create total equality is perhaps questionable in this day and age but rules is rules and tradition is tradition with the Jews.

 

I'm not about to get into why Mosques do whatever they do with their women - but it will probably be along similar lines. 

 

But the Exclusive Brethren have a more curious set up when it comes to the pecking order in their so-called 'churches'worldwide. When I was one of them - their churches were a mixture of old halls, old houses, even old sheds perhaps, that had been transformed into fundamental 'churches'. Over the past 40 years, most PBCC churches follow a strict formula for design and seating layout - which is generally set out in the windowless round. Concentric rows starting with an inner circle and radiating back as the congregation becomes less and less important in the status department.

 

If anyone (and I mean one of them - as the general public are not admitted) just walks in to a Brethren room today and decides that today he is going to go and sit in the front row -the fallout is palpable. I would suggest that today - that person would be asked to move. You see, for as long as I can remember, there has been a pecking order of importance in Brethren churches. And the order relates to keeping the plebs back and the 'prominent' ones at the front in their highly prized seats.  Of course if you go to the same church as the leader - or if the leader visits your meeting room -woe betide the fool who thinks he can sit beside - or even near the 'great man'.  These prized seats are often in use by the same person for decades.

 

Whereas - walk into a Catholic or Baptist or Presbyterian church and you can sit up front all day without a whimper from the congregation. Well, maybe a slight whimper from a crusty old parishioner but certainly not a strong arm eviction. 

 

'Prominent' is a word the Brethren like. It basically means someone who has pushed their way forward through intense indoctrination and lots of sucking up to the powers that be. And the prominent guys are the ones who sit up front and dish out the doctrine. And the punishments.  And this is where its gets ugly. 

 

If a prominent brother who has sat in the same important seat in the front row suddenly finds himself out of favour - he instinctively is ushered towards the back of the room - probably sitting beside his wife in the 15th row. In Brethren- land, it's a visual fall from grace - a visual kick in the kidneys and something that he is going to have to work hard to recover from. 

 

In every Brethren 'church' there are the pleb Peebs. These are people who go to church but who do not contribute to the proceedings and can't wait until each session is over so they can get home and do something more important. They can't leave because of family and kids and probably their job - but if they brought in a voluntary attendance rule - they would rarely if ever show up. As for any seat forward of about the third row - forget it. They would approach such a seat in much the same way as they would a rabid dog.

 

Being up front means being vulnerable. It means that some mean bastard in the front row might fire a question at you - which you are ill-equipped to answer. And nobody likes to set themselves up to look like a fool. In what must be called a fool's paradise. So the non- movers and shakers sit happily down the back with their wives and rarely say a word that is not compulsory. 

 

The real interesting bit is what happens when someone 'prominent' falls foul of this highly delicate system of order. Let's say a 'prominent' brother with his front row seat suddenly finds himself in the brown matter. If it's terminal - he takes the long walk. Which has happened to many leading brothers in the past including the fathers' of the current 'great men' in Australia. Given the bullet on a Tuesday night - they are told that they can't be 'walked with' and then forced to shuffle out into the darkness of the (shudder) - world. With every eye fixed on their receding forms. The Plebs internally punch the air at such a sight as well as a few front and second row brothers as well. They are a vindictive bunch these Brethren. They relish the opportunity for some schadenfreudeLike Dame Edna, they are deliriously happy at witnessing the misfortune of others. 

 

And then the real tussle begins. Who will get his seat! The lesser important 'prominent' brothers all jostle for position and at the very next meeting - one of them has forced his way into the fallen one's vacated seat in either a self appointed capacity or by being pushed forward by those who are in turn - sucking up to him.

 

If a 'prominent' brother -having scrabbled and scrambled his way forward over the years and landed himself a plum seat with his fellow heavies - suddenly finds himself in a situation - the thought of tumbling back the rows to a position of unimportance is almost more than he can bear.

 

Let's take a real case in point. A prominent brother - who has a lifetime of compliance and crawling under his belt and has learned parrot fashion,  every word that the most 'prominent' of other brothers have said over the past - say 20 years or more- suddenly finds himself in a potentially damaging situation. His daughter gets pregnant at a ridiculously young age and he of course is directly responsible as the perpetrator - make that the penetrator - has crept under his roof to do it. Without his knowledge. So the daughter is thrown out with her 'boyfriend' to 'get right' (which means to make marriage plans immediately) and he is instinctively relegated to the rear of the church with the bloody plebs. A spectacular fall from grace. He is now back with people he doesn't really know - nor wants to know.  His progression is like that of an ant falling from a branch 20 feet above the ground. He has that inexorable crawl back up the trunk to reunite with his ilk in the front row again and it's not an easy journey. For a start his seat has been taken  and secondly there are a bunch of people who really want to keep him where he now is. 

 

Don't tell me about love in the 'assembly'. They bloody hate each other and the indicators are right there in their seating order.  Oh - I didn't mention the womenfolk. Well -they sit behind the rows of brothers all the way to the back. Which means they can snooze if they feel like it and keep themselves well out of harm's way.  Which in a Brethren hall - is not a bad place to be. 

 

Yes folks - if you want to worship God in a PBCC 'church' -you have to know your place. And trust me - it's nowhere near the front. 

 

78 comments:

  1. The article above is mainly about the reading meetings and ministry meetings, but there were also rules about the front row at the breaking of bread. In 1969 Jim Taylor decreed that there should be no sisters on the front row (Vol. 129 page 49) and no wriggly kids (Vol. 131 pages 135-136). I suppose non-wriggly kids would be all right.

    The front row could be a risky place when Jim Taylor was looking round for someone to insult or someone to demand money from.

    In Notes of Meetings in New York, October 6-8, 1970, Mr Taylor asked a lot of people for money, particularly those on the front row. This meeting was his last recorded ministry.

    In Vol. 148 page 161 (21 July 1970) he issued a lot of wanton insults, aimed partly at those in the front row, but also at some of the sisters.

    At Preston on 79-19 July 1970 he complained that some of the brothers in the first four rows stink. (See Readings at Nostrand Avenue and Other Ministry Volume 2 page 94).

    I can provide verbatim quotations to illustrate these facts, if anyone wants them.

    I have never known Mr Taylor to say anything kind or positive about those on the front row. Nor BDH either. He said, for instance, that mostly the self-satisfied people sit in the front row (Vol. 81 page 25) and JSH once commented, “Our beloved brother said at Cleveland, he says, I think Judas would have been sitting in the front row.”

    But the above article is right in describing a change of seating position as a measure of rising or falling status. This is illustrated by the case of JSH. BDH remarked that in 1978 JSH was sitting on the fifth row (see BDH Vol. 35 page 106) but after June 1984, he came back from Winnipeg and sat on the front row for first time since 1976 (see BDH Vol. 1 page 52 and Vol. 76 page 55).

    JSH also referred to the front row as an indicator of status. Speaking of E. L. Crutcher, he said, “when he was in Sydney, he didn't even rate a front-row seat. That's how dopey Sydney can be. When they allocate the front seats, they don’t put Teddy Crutcher on the front seat, he’s not good-looking enough!” (Vol. 25 page 192).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm not really sure there are "rules"Ian.
      When l looked at their web-site, l was struck by how simple their faith is and not at all stale. Have any of you guys been to a preaching or weekday gathering?

      Delete
    2. Have you looked at other website I wonder - have to seen how former members are being treated? Oh and we can't go to the preaching or "weekly gatherings"
      James

      Delete
    3. To 19.31

      When I looked at their website I was struck by the deceit and pretence that did not present a true image of this extremist, family wrecking organisation who are mainly motivated by wealth and the need to maintain public funding.

      I am sure many of "the guys" on here have had their fill of gatherings and left to be free of hypocrisy and corruption or to discover Christianity.

      Delete
    4. I see nothing wrong in having a PR face to their church.
      All churches use PR and generally have a statement of faith.
      When I see the photos on their website, their faces look so fresh,
      open and gentle. I reckon they are the sort to stop to help
      if you your shopping or have a flat tire. It's a bad thing to dwell
      on past hurts and far more productive to make peace.
      We can't always change other people, but we can change
      our own attitude to win hearts and minds of those we
      don't always agree with.

      Delete
    5. Anon 14th June 19:21

      Your comments seem deliberately disingenuous misleading spin

      While it is true many churches today do have a website and have a public statement of faith, that does not mean they employ a PR company to manage their public face.

      All churches do NOT use a PR company as you state. Most Churches do NOT have a PR company running their public face. A genuine Christian Church does not need a PR company. A PR company is also expensive and most genuine Christian Churches just don’t have the funds for one. They prefer to spend funds on missionary work spreading the Good News

      A PR company exists to manage a brand or image change. Commercial companies often use the services of a PR company to manage bad press. They create ‘spin’ and ‘propaganda’ in order to try to change perceptions of something or to engage in damage limitation, or to twist facts in their favour.

      All of that is fine in a commercial sense but highly unusual and suspicious in a Christian Church sense.

      Of course if nothing has actually changed apart from a different name, as in the case of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren, then no amount of spin and propaganda created by a PR company can evade and hide the true facts

      It interesting to note, all major cults use PR companies to create spin and propaganda to hide the harmful and detrimental effects of the cult or sectarian group. The Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons and Scientologists all use PR companies.

      The Scientologists use the same PR Company as the PBCC EB

      Anon 14th June 19:21

      You say –
      It's a bad thing to dwell on past hurts and far more productive to make peace. We can't always change other people, but we can change our own attitude to win hearts and minds of those we don't always agree with.”

      Response -
      On that basis according to your thinking is it not about time the PBCC EB stopped being so sectarian in separating from the Body of Christ and stopped refusing to eat or drink with non members (even other Christians) and stopped ‘withdrawing from’ those who leave and stopped dividing families, all of which continues to this day !.

      According to your logic and way of thinking is it not about time these sectarian actions stopped, they are abhorrent to Christ did you know ?

      I wonder what you think of what the Bible teaches about seeking justice, does that not apply to past hurts and current hurts (for family division continues, it hasn’t stopped you know) ?

      Delete
  2. Yes, it can happen on just one night too. Everybody in Wycombe knew something was wrong when Gordon Pollard entered the room and sat on the second row, Before the meeting proper started, he confessed to turning his business, which had previously traded as a partnership, into a limited liability company. It was deemed to be very wrong at that time, before the Lord turned a corner on that particular 'issue' ( or was it a 'matter'?!).

    However,, having confessed it and being duly forgiven, he was back on the front row within 24 hours!

    It is, as others have stated, a very accurate barometer of a person's standing within the PBCC.

    We understand that on the odd occasion a 'worldlie' attends a PBCC meeting, they are placed behind the sisters. They newcomer may not be aware, but for a man it is the ultimate insult in PBCC eyes.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gordon Pollard is with the Lord and there we leave it. ls it wise or ethical to start digging dirt?

      Daisy

      Delete
    2. Hmm, in similar vein, Is it even wise or ethical for us mortals to announce who is "with the Lord" or otherwise? Or is wishful thinking ok in your book, Daisy!

      Delete
    3. Daisy says 'Gordon Pollard is with the Lord and there we leave it. ls it wise or ethical to start digging dirt?'

      Try spinning that one to Jimmy Savile's victims.

      Does dying suddenly make everything right in the PBCC?

      Gordon Pollard lied to the whole nation on BBC TV a few years ago, then distanced himself from his own brethren by referring to things 'they' had done. Deceitful, dishonest and now apparently dead.

      Delete
    4. Are you short on brain cells?
      What is the connection between Jimmy Savile and Gordon Pollard?
      When people die their history is finished and we leave it for God to judge.

      The spirit of this world is one of vindictiveness and accusation, but the
      Lord said "Go and sin no more" God is able to forgive every sin in our lives. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
      Sadly there is an element of anti-christian behaviour in the British media
      which not only delights in the sins of society, but also is vindictive and
      without decency towards those that fall. None of us are without sin and
      thus it is only the grace of God which preserves us.

      Daisy

      Delete
    5. Daisy ventures 'None of us are without sin and thus it is only the grace of God which preserves us'.

      So what gives Daisy the authority to churlishly suggest that a poster might be 'short on brain cells'? That poster could well be one Jesus died for as much as for you. That's what I call anti-Christian.

      What was it the Pharisee said ? God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

      Look in the mirror, Daisy.

      Delete
    6. Daisy
      Are you suggesting that the victims of Jimmy Saville do not deserve justice?
      Similarly are you suggesting that it is wrong to question what Gordon Pollard said on a public media outlet simply because he is no longer alive?
      Many thousands of people have been damaged permanently by the so called ministry of a womanising alcoholic who is no longer alive. Sin has consequences and impacts on other people. God will be the final judge but it is right and cathartic for us to examine fairly the wrong and damage that persons have done.

      Delete
    7. To Daisy

      Short on brain cells? Knowing the damage caused by alcohol on brain cells and also that considerable alcohol consumption is part of the fabric of an unhealthy PBCC life style, pots and kettles spring to mind.

      It might explain the quality of some of the Peebish comments and lapses of memory concerning Peeb membership.

      Non contributor

      Delete
    8. Daisy asks 'What is the connection between Jimmy Savile and Gordon Pollard?'

      Both had a lot of money, Savile was lucky that he didn't have a domineering wife who ran the show for him.

      Delete
  3. There is a place for everyone in their place.
    l really like the way they sit together in harmony without jostling for position.
    Don't think it's helpful or positive to snipe
    at the PBCC. Let's rather focus on the good things
    in our fellow man and make much of the work of God. There is something cowardly and slimey about
    many of the comments here. Like a bunch of Hyenas circling a new born baby..How sad!

    Not a Peeb, but respect them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe you should talk to some of the mothers who are not allowed to see their children or the adult children not allowed to see their parents - then you might think differently perhaps
      James

      Delete
    2. Dear Peeb/Not a Peeb,
      PLEASE don't compare a harmful personality cult to a new born baby. That is just awful.

      And if you think the EB sit together in harmony, you have completely missed the point of the above article, which I happen to believe describes the nuances of the Brethren pecking order rather well.

      As for "let us focus on the good things in our fellow man" - Jesus wept! Stop with the platitudes, will you. I know several hundred of your 'fellow men and women' who have been excommunicated from the EB/PBCC and had their natural family relationships torn asunder. The Brethren's refusal to focus on the good in these folk is legendary... and has caused such heartbreak and mental anguish and grief, for which it seems you have not much empathy.

      God's work? - hmm. Part of the work of God is for us to follow His commandment to care for the widows and the infirm. Where do you get off on effectively telling those of us widowed and made infirm by the direct actions and inaction of the Hales Exclusive Brethren aka the PBCC... to put a sock in it and only say nice things about a bunch of spiritual murderers and cult indoctrinators?

      Truth is much more important than being nicey-nice sometimes... and while there are children and trapped adults having mind-control enacted upon them by the Hales business enterprise masquerading as a church, some of us will not be silent or nice. Standing up to a monied cult is scary.

      If you wish to call that type of action cowardly, I think you need a dictionary.

      If you wish to only read slimey sycophancy about the PBCC, stick to their website - it's full of it. In my opinion there is certainly no call for this blog to become a second website full of smarm - their original one is quite enough to make me feel so nauseous I tend to avoid it wherever possible.

      You must understand I do not use the term 'nauseous' lightly or nastily - because of the way EB/PBCC actions continue to impact on my family, reading their nonsense (on their website or in ministry or their 'rebuttals' of press articles for example) makes me feel physically ill. One of the effects of PTSD, in fact. Look it up - you might learn something about how to talk to those affected by the harm and detriment caused by a group such as the EB/PBCC.

      Delete
    3. Anon 13th June 19:08

      You say – “Let's rather focus on the good things in our fellow man and make much of the work of God.”

      The trouble is, your sanctimonious comments are entirely inconsistent, hypocritical and deceitful when the actual sectarian separatist practices of the PBCC Exclusive Brethren are exposed.

      For example,

      PBCC EB separate from all other Christians refusing to worship, fellowship, or take communion with them – That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB refuse to eat or drink with any non members (not even other Christians), being taught ‘outsiders’ are defiling, contaminating and iniquitous – That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB ‘withdraw from’ (cut off), any persons who leave the group (even if they leave to go to a Christian Church) - That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB are taught that all outsiders are ‘worldly’ (even if they are Christians) and members are not allowed to mix with ‘outsiders’ - That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB divide families if a person leaves the group (even if that person is a Christian), resulting in generations of persons unable to have normal everyday contact with husbands, wifes, children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents etc - That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB refuse to have any part in evangelism with any other Christian Church, or Christian organisation. Members are ‘withdrawn from’ (cut off) if they so much as join with other Christians in worship, prayer, song, fellowship or communion or go to a non PBCC EB Church service - That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      PBCC EB ‘ministry’ consistently (I have copies) denigrates, criticises, finds fault with, and demonises literally anything outside the walls of PBCC EB. This includes ALL other Churches and ALL other Christians, education, science, marriage, certain careers, institutions, culture and art, sport, music etc. - That is NOT “focusing on the good things in our fellow man and making much of the work of God” is it ?

      Anon 13th June 19:08

      Its no wonder you keep trying to gloss over the truth with sycophantic nice sounding platitudes desperately trying to suppress the reality of PBCC EB sectarian practices

      Delete
    4. To 19.08

      A strange comment since the posting is about the jostling of position and the lack of harmony. If you are not a Peeb, how are you familiar with their arrangements?

      I agree with Lauren, your choice of image is very unpleasant; a new born baby is not to be compared with the adult world of hypocrisy and bigotry.

      Focus on the good things? A noble sentiment! Mussolini made the trains run on time and Hitler built an excellent road infrastructure and was kind to his dog. Rather extreme examples, I know; but you get my drift!

      Delete
  4. To anyone reading this post:

    It is an utter load of made up rubbish. The poster has clearly got a good imagination. Anyone is welcome to come to a meeting and see for yourself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. To Anon 14Th June 06:53

      It is important to cut through the PBCC Exclusive Brethren deliberate misinformation and propaganda to establish truth

      - Saying “Anyone is welcome to come to a meeting” clearly implies that ALL meetings are available to the general public and the general public are ‘welcome’ which has the further suggestion there are no ‘barriers’ to cross and no restrictions. Yet anyone who knows the ‘real’ PBCC Exclusive Brethren, knows that these implications, suggestions and notions are utter nonsense. It is therefore dishonest and deceitful to say ‘anyone is welcome to come to a meeting’

      - The ‘Only Meeting’ of the PBCC EB that is publicly advertised is the Lords Day preaching, and even then, those interested must first ring up in advance. It is not possible to just turn up. Persons only need to read the PBCC EB ‘notice boards’ to see this fact. It is therefore dishonest and deceitful to say ‘anyone is welcome to come to a meeting’

      - All other ‘meetings’ such as the Lords Table (Communion), fellowship meetings, 3 days meetings, bible reading meetings, care meetings, assembly meetings, meeting for prophetic ministry, etc etc are ‘Members Only’. It is therefore dishonest and deceitful to say ‘anyone is welcome to come to a meeting’

      - Even if a Christian of many years standing, somehow managed to gain access past all the deliberate barriers, they would not be allowed to take part in Communion at the Lords Table, because that is for ‘Members Only’. They are not truly ‘welcome’ at the Lords Table, if they were they could share communion. It is therefore dishonest and deceitful to say ‘anyone is welcome to come to a meeting’

      - However, such is the deceitful way PBCC Exclusive Brethren operate, if you are someone in authority (local MP, Mayor, Councillor, etc) you will gain access to some meetings. This is because the whole modus operandi of PBCC EB is to protect their financial interests and Charitable status, so they will turn as many corners as it takes to achieve that aim to hoodwink those in authority.

      - However, why would anyone want to go to a PBCC EB ‘meeting’ when they find out that PBCC EB will only eat or drink with those who are also ‘Members’, as ‘outsiders’ are contaminated with iniquity. So PBCC EB do not think the rest of the general public nor any other Christians are fit to eat or drink with !. This is totally contrary to Christian Biblical teaching and entirely sectarian, extremist and cultish

      - Contrast all this with the practices of a genuine biblical Christian Church, where all services are genuinely available to the general public, there is no secrecy, there are no additional barriers to cross (no phoning up prior to going). The Church eats and drinks with ALL those who are Christians (as taught in the Bible) and those who are not (as taught in the Bible). The communion Lords Table is open to all those who are Christians and what the Church practices before the general public is the same as that in front of those in authority.

      Delete
    2. 06.53

      How disingenuous of you! Spin from PB Broadcasting Corp.

      Delete
    3. Wrong BR
      06:53 has not given misleading information.
      All are welcome to come, but not any old how.
      Would you visit the queen at Buckingham palace dressed in only in your grimy underwear?
      So how much rather when coming into the presence of the King of Kings.
      Some more questions to see if you are genuine or not -

      1 Would you be prepared to come in a submissive spirit?
      2 Will you retract all your previous statements on this blog?
      3 Are you ready to be adjusted by God's current word?
      4 Are you prepared to accept that separation from evil
      is God's principle of unity?

      Not a peeb

      Delete
    4. Not a peeb says '4 Are you prepared to accept that separation from evil
      is God's principle of unity?

      No. 2 Tim 2 has been tampered with by the PBCC to suit their own ideals. Most people outside the PBCC are LESS evil than those within.

      In, but now thankfully out.

      So also, no longer a peeb.

      Delete
    5. "Not a Peeb" 18:54

      Thank you for providing the evidence that people are only conditionally free to attend a PBCC meeting if they satisfy your criteria; also, that you are not open to all, nor a public benefit. Would the meeting, to which you refer, just be the one advertised, out of about ten gatherings, by the way?

      So that the prospective visitor could do his/her homework, would you provide some notes, please? Could you explain what God's "current" word might be? Could you also explain separation from "evil"; for example, if anyone attends your meetings, what must they separate from, in a practical way?

      For a non peeb you seem to be well up to speed on all things peebish.

      Not a contributor to this blog

      Delete
    6. Anon 14th June 18:54

      I feel very sorry for you and will pray for you,

      Your comments and those of other PBCC EB commentators mix out of context snippets from the Bible with ‘ideas of men’ to create a pharisaical culture which is abhorrent to Christ. PBCC EB have clearly departed from Christian Biblical truth

      You say –
      “06:53 has not given misleading information. All are welcome to come, but not any old how.”

      Response –
      Yes 06:53 gave very misleading information as you well know, which is why you’re now trying to back peddle & qualify the statement from 06:53, by adding a snippet of additional information (“not any old how”)

      Your now trying to imply, suggest, or admit (not sure which ! ) that there are indeed barriers to gain access (a dress code !). Yet, 06:53 did not admit this.

      Yet, still you’re being drastically economical with the truth as you well know. My post of 14 June at 14:06 FULLY explains ALL are NOT welcome to come to ALL meetings, a fact which you’re still trying to evade admitting

      You say –
      “All are welcome to come, but not any old how. Would you visit the queen at Buckingham palace dressed in only in your grimy underwear? So how much rather when coming into the presence of the King of Kings.”

      Response –
      Unlike 06:53 your admitting to some form of ‘dress code’& implied ‘extra standard’ to meet before gaining access to the one meeting you advertise. Yet the Bible (Gods Word) teaches something very different. This is what the Bible says -

      1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

      James 2:1-9 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

      Anon 14th June 18:54

      From what you state you wouldn’t even let the poor man in shabby clothing into your meetings ! How directly contradictory of Gods Word the Bible !

      As to your additional questions -

      1. I strive always to be submissive to Gods Word (The Bible), however my Bible instructs me NOT to be submissive to false teaching but to expose it

      2. My statements now and previously have focused on exposing the false teaching & cutting through the spin, lies, baseless nonsense and misinformation propagated by PBCC EB. I have tried on many occasions to explain patiently the truth of the Christian faith from Gods Word the Bible using many many biblical references. On that basis my conscience before God could never allow me to retract my statements

      3. I am always ready to be adjusted by Gods Word the Bible. Yet your question has a devious hidden implication.

      Gods Word is the Bible and the Bible alone !. When God speaks currently today, he speaks from His Word & does not contradict His Word which is the Bible. If a ‘mere man’ speaks today purporting to speak the word of God yet he speaks contradictory to Gods Word the Bible, then that ‘mere man’ can not be speaking Gods Word can he ?

      If your asking me to submit to teaching which is contrary to the Bible, then I certainly can not agree to that

      4. Please explain where I can find your reference in Gods Word the Bible, so I can cross reference it before answering your question ?

      Delete
  5. 06:53 is right. One has to look at what is behind all these posts about the brethren.
    We can see that this is completely against the message of Jesus Christ.

    Equality?
    The world in general has a distorted view of "equality" or so called "human rights"
    Treating people with respect and fairness is not to say we can use political correctness to override moral values. It doesn't work.
    So called "Equality" is a popular, yet utterly false notion sold to the foolish by an
    equally foolish world and deceitful media. Such is being used to discriminate against those who wish to obey God and live moral lives according to the bible. Have we ever considered God's rights and claims over us? The natural order was created by God and our society is now paying a terrible price because of breaking it down and disobeying him. The rapid breakdown of the family unit has been caused by people meddling with God's order in nature. It is the fruit of sin and we can see the harm and spiritual poverty caused by a departure
    from what is moral, good and right.

    So we are not "created equal" - The PC rabble had better get used to it.
    I really like what 19:08 said - "There is a place for everybody in their place"
    It's not only a beautiful statement, but it is 100% factual and truthful.

    Not a peeb

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'There is a place for everybody in their place' 'There is a place for everybody in their place' 'pieces of eight' 'pieces of eight'.

      Rather apt, the illustration that accompanies this article. Parrots, parroting the same old PBCC dogma.

      'Not a peeb' Not a peeb'....there they go again..... Just a pity they refuse to comment on other articles posted recently.....Like convicted sex offenders Gulley, Petrie and Jenson.

      Does 'Not a peeb' condone the sexual abuse of children within the PBCC?

      Delete
    2. Lol, so you think comments on this site are "completely against the message of Jesus Christ"? Have a read of John 2:14-16 to see what He thought of money-changers and commercial obsessives doing their thing in the temple/church!

      I take it you are inferring that the HEB/PBCC 'treat people with respect & fairness'? The only people they accord that to in my experience, is the small minority of people who care to agree with their bizarre ideas.

      I'd also like to make the point that defending the HEB/PBCC and preaching defensively about moral values all in the same sentence, is a conundrum too far in my opinion, when one considers the endemic dishonesty which now seems to imbue all of them. It is hard to believe, if one has not experienced it, the sense of evil felt when a HEB member is prepared to blatantly lie even whilst mouthing supposed Christian gospel and looking one directly in the eye. Hales Brethren these days will spout UTTER untruth and willful misinformation, without batting an eyelid. Overriding moral values? They've got their overriding down to such a fine and practised art they barely even seem to know they're doing it any more. I know, because nearly three decades ago when I was a peeb, we were doing it then, to my shame.

      TBH, I find it difficult to believe you are "not a peeb" - you speak exactly like one! As someone has pointed out elsewhere, peebs have such a distinctive phraseology all their own, it is pretty easy to spot. Just saying.

      Delete
    3. "Not a Peeb" 9.58

      In some cases the breakdown of the family unit has been caused by the decrees of PBCC cult leaders meddling with "God's order in nature". It is, indeed, the fruit of very wicked men and a departure from what is moral, good and right.

      Not a contributor

      Delete
    4. Anon 14 June 09:58

      You give yourself away as a member of the PBCC EB, despite your claim. You may not understand, realise or accept it but the way PBCC EB members write and speak is unique to them, as its full of sanctimonious spin, deceit and the platitudes of the Pharisee

      You say –
      “We can see that this is completely against the message of Jesus Christ”

      It is the PBCC EB who are completely against the message of Jesus Christ. They practice sectarianism and the laws of the Pharisee. They divide the Body of Christ by separating from ALL other Christians. They ignore vast swathes of Gods Word the Bible, they even refuse to eat or drink with ANY other Christians. Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren preach and practice separation and exclusion YET Christ preached inclusion and being together as One Body.

      You say –
      “Such is being used to discriminate against those who wish to obey God and live moral lives according to the bible”

      Who are the ‘those’ ?

      It cant be PBCC Exclusive Brethren because they don’t obey Gods Word which is the Bible because they follow laws, rules, ideas, whims and fancies introduced by ‘men’ such as James Taylor Senior, James Taylor Junior, Symington, Bruce Hales. They divide families if a person leaves (even if the other person is a Christian) and believe an alcoholic womaniser (former leader James Taylor Junior), caught in bed with another mans wife, is a ‘pure man’ !

      You say –
      “The rapid breakdown of the family unit has been caused by people meddling with God's order in nature”

      It is the PBCC EB who create breakdown in the family unit as you divide families if a person leaves the group, even if they are Christian. This results in generations of divided families, parents, children, grandparents, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, etc, unable to have normal relations

      You say –
      “It is the fruit of sin and we can see the harm and spiritual poverty caused by a departure from what is moral, good and right”

      Yet, the PBCC EB show the fruit of sin, harm, spiritual poverty, caused by a departure from what is moral, good and right by continuing to call an alcoholic former leader James Taylor Junior who was a false teacher and womaniser found in bed with another mans wife, a ‘pure man’ and ‘our beloved’ !. The Exclusive Brethren published ministry of the last 40 odd years shows stark spiritual poverty and sectarianism

      You say –
      “So we are not "created equal" - The PC rabble had better get used to it. I really like what 19:08 said - "There is a place for everybody in their place" It's not only a beautiful statement, but it is 100% factual and truthful.

      Yet the Bible teaches the complete opposite of what you say !!!

      Delete
  6. "Anyone is welcome to come to a meeting and see for yourself"
    What a load of piffle. Before I escaped I had been to thousands of meetings spread over several years and things were substantially as described in the opening post above. In the smaller localities where there were less brethren and hence less rows this phenomenon was not so obvious; but if anyone was invited to a larger 3 day meeting, the seating arrangements were clearly based on perceived status.
    If I was to knock on the door of a meeting room all these years later to "see for myself" I am fairly certain I would be politely declined entry. I have no intention of putting it to the test and embarrasing myself and them. That does not mean that commentary on this blog about the peculiarities of the Exclusive Brethren system should therefore stop.

    Ricardo

    ReplyDelete
  7. Brother Rev

    Para 3 of the post nicely sums up the foolishness of the "Wise of this world"
    Would you agree or contend with the truth in the Bible that we are not created equal? Furthermore, we are not equal to God, but are part of his creation.





    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am lost - are you saying that somewhere in the Bible it says we are not created equal? really??
      George

      Delete
    2. Anon 14th June 11:52

      You say –
      “Para 3 of the post nicely sums up the foolishness of the "Wise of this world"”

      To which ‘post’ are you referring to ?

      Please explain and make reference to when it was posted so I can cross reference your conclusion to see if I agree with it or not

      You say –
      “Would you agree or contend with the truth in the Bible that we are not created equal?”

      To which Biblical verses in Gods Word are you referring to ?

      I can not read your mind, so please provide some references from the Holy Bible that support your statement. No one but the most ill taught or young in the faith, will just accept what you say without sufficient supporting Biblical evidence. The Holy Bible instructs Christians to search the Scriptures to see if what is said is true (Acts 17 the bereans) and to test the spirits to see if the things said really do come from God (1 John 4)

      You say –
      “Furthermore, we are not equal to God, but are part of his creation”

      I can not accept the ‘furthermore’ because that relates to your previous statement for which you provide no Biblical evidence yet. However, I find the rest of your statement puzzling because I thought all Christians (and thousands of those who are not) understood the basic core element of Christian faith that God is supreme over all.

      Mere sinful men in the flesh (which we all are) could never be equal to God as distance came in at the fall of Adam, but God sent His son Christ Jesus to act as mediator between God and Man. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3 v16)

      Tell me, is it true what I hear, that PBCC EB are taught to believe they don’t sin ?

      Delete
    3. Anonymous 11.52
      We are equal in God's eyes. ALL have sinned - that seems like a level playing field to me. Simon the Pharisee thought he was better than the woman in Luke 7. Jesus told him otherwise.
      Do I detect a hint of the Pharisees in what you are saying?

      Delete
  8. Wow, the peebs (sorry - not-a-peebs) have been busy - whatever happened to those meetings they should have been attending on the Sabbath and the Lord's Day? Anyway, something one of them said struck a chord with me "Don't think it's helpful or positive to snipe at the PBCC. Let's rather focus on the good things." I agree 100%. I have listed the top 10 good things about the PBCC below:

    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    5.
    6.
    7.
    8.
    9.
    10.

    RLS

    ReplyDelete
  9. I knew the PBCC members have a clear and unscriptural love of money. It now seems very clear that also have a clear and unscriptural love of position too.

    Even without all their imposed difficulties to attend a meeting, who wants company like that?

    ReplyDelete
  10. A few years ago I approached members of our local PBCC Gospel Hall to find out the times of their meetings. It was in my mind to go regularly to a midweek Bible Study and I looked forward to getting to know the Brethren who worshipped there. I was told that the Brethren don’t study the Bible and that the meeting on the evening I could manage focussed on the teaching of their leaders.

    I was also informed that, although a visitor, I would be expected to conform to their dress code and wear a dress, not trousers. The Bible reference they gave me for this was Deuteronomy 22:5. I arranged a visit to Fiona and Garth Christie’s home in Leeds in October 2012 to explain to them that the Hebrew of that verse refers to a woman not wearing the accoutrements of a strong man or warrior, geber (pronounced gever) - in the Lexicon, Strong’s number H1397. Garth accepted this and said if I were to go to a Brethren meeting I could wear my normal clothes.

    A local PBCC ‘brother’ told me that I would not be allowed to speak in the meeting and that I would have to sit on my own at the back. I haven’t yet been to a meeting, but I would like to go and I hope I would be accepted and made welcome, just as I am when I visit any mainstream church.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I went to several of their meetings and found them
    to be mainstream, modern and very nice. No clutter, stained glass or idols to detract from Christ.
    Afterwards, cups of tea, cakes and pies served by friendly and charming people.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon 15th June 15:59

      O for goodness sake, do you PBCC EB members ever give up spouting like parrots your propaganda, spin, half truths, obfuscations and lies ?

      1.
      Nobody would ever think the PBCC EB are ‘mainstream’ when they find out the REAL truth of their practices and beliefs.

      PBCC EB separate from the Body of Christ and refuse to have any fellowship, worship, or communion with any other Christian from any other Church. Members are not even allowed to eat or drink with other Christians, nor are they allowed to visit other Churches to hear the Word of God. If a member breaks these rules they are ‘withdrawn from’ and cut off. Any person who leaves is separated from the rest of their family and friends. There are generations of family, parents, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters etc who have been prevented from having a normal relationship with their family still trapped inside PBCC EB. Members are taught the PBCC EB is ‘THE ONLY’ true Church and that only PBCC EB have ‘The Truth’. Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren are taught that former leader James Taylor Junior (who was an alcoholic womaniser found in bed with another mans wife and who introduced vast swathes of false teaching), is a ‘pure man’ and ‘our beloved’. PBCC EB allow babes in arms to take communion yet refuse the rest of the Body of Christ at the Lords Table.

      If you think this (and plenty more) is ‘mainstream’ then your living in cloud cookoo land in a fog of delusion

      If you think this (and plenty more) is ‘mainstream’ then you have no knowledge of real biblical Christianity

      If you think this (and plenty more) is ‘mainstream’ then you have no knowledge of other Christian Churches

      No genuine Christian could EVER say the PBCC EB is 'mainstream' because PBCC EB dont follow mainstream biblical Christianity

      2.
      If you think PBCC EB are the only place to have plain church halls with ‘no clutter, stained glass’ (as you term it), then you demonstrate chronic lack of knowledge about what Christian Churches are available to a Christian in 2015.

      We don’t live in 1830 now, praise the Lord

      There are of course the main traditional national denominations such as C of E or C of S, etc but now in 2015 there are thousands of Christian Churches (just in the UK) who have plain Church halls with no ‘no clutter, stained glass’ (as you term it)

      You further show your ignorance because many traditional Churches have stained glass windows depicting biblical stories from The Bible. So how you think this detracts from Christ I don’t know !

      What really detracts from Christ is PBCC EB false teaching from the likes of James Taylor Junior !!!

      Of course these are facts which PBCC EB keep suppressed from their members in order to purposefully keep them in ignorance to trap them and stop them from leaving

      3.
      The only time PBCC EB serve cups of tea, cakes and pies that the general public can access without preconditions is at Open Hours that are held very infrequently on a Saturday at very selective halls. However, there are NEVER any services at these events !

      The only time PBCC EB serve cups of tea, cakes and pies after any services are held is after private members only access events such as fellowship meetings, or 3 days meetings etc, which are for members Only !

      Your overall statement is therefore disingenuous to say the least

      Delete
    2. Perhaps Anon 15 June 15.59 could tell us the location of these mainstream modern very nice meetings are.
      Perhaps Anon could also tell us if the cups of tea , cakes and pies were enjoyed by members and non-members together as would be the case in any mainstream church.

      Delete
    3. 15:59 No, my statement is 100% genuine dear chap.

      Do you really spend all day dreaming-up this Pyramid of Piffle?
      There's nothing wrong in people using the expression - "MAINSTREAM" to describe their church. Can I ask if you are against freedom of expression? It's not hate or even PR speech and so please don't make such a big issue out of it.
      If a church wants to serve-up cups of tea, cakes and pies after or before
      the service, that makes perfect sense. You want to be munching a Giant crusty meat pie whilst preaching at the same time? Well, I've yet to see it happen. And what about wigging-down a Lashing of Ginger beer whilst
      singing your favourite hymn? Ahhh yes, that's the ticket! Or what about a nice blob of cream on the end of your nose as you closed in prayer? Ahhh far be the thought.

      So if you really are concerned about people being disingenuous, then there is plenty of that in the crappy and shallow media for you to reproach. It even might shame them into telling a few less porkies :)
      Nobody is compelled to attend the church or sample their free food,
      but most people would consider it jolly nice of them to provide it.

      Now where are those free giant crusty pies?
      How about these free creamy cakes?
      All washed down by copious amounts of free Ginger beer.



      Delete
    4. Anon 16th June 12:45

      You say –
      “No, my statement is 100% genuine dear chap”

      Er No my friend,
      Your statement could only be genuine if you yourself are in fact a member of the PBCC EB, which of course you claim not to be, so it is impossible for your statement to be genuine unless you think lies are truth

      Like I said, they do NOT serve cups of tea, cakes and pies after or before ANY meetings to which the public can attend, That’s a fact

      Like I said, they ONLY serve cups of tea, cakes and pies to the public during the very infrequent ‘Open Hour’ on a Saturday at very selected rooms BUT there are NO services at these events

      Like I said, they DO serve cups of tea, cakes and pies after some services, BUT these services are ONLY available to Members, such as fellowship meetings etc

      So, if you have been to a service and had cups of tea, cakes and pies etc then you must be a member of PBCC EB

      Or are you so far from Christianity that you are going to try to deny truth and facts ?

      You say –
      “There's nothing wrong in people using the expression - "MAINSTREAM" to describe their church. Can I ask if you are against freedom of expression? It's not hate or even PR speech and so please don't make such a big issue out of it.”

      Er, No my friend,
      Your nonsensical statement just proves how confused PBCC EB are. Just because persons have the freedom of expression to say what they like does not necessarily make what they say true, does it ?

      For PBCC EB to say they are ‘mainstream’ is a lie, because it inst factual, as the facts say the opposite. If PBCC EB are content and happy to lie, then carry on

      However, thankfully, freedom of expression allows Christians and many others to expose this lie by PBCC EB

      So if you don’t mind, you cant stop the truth being spoken (using factual reality) nor can you stop your lies being exposed as lies

      You say –
      “So if you really are concerned about people being disingenuous, then there is plenty of that in the crappy and shallow media for you to reproach. It even might shame them into telling a few less porkies :) “

      Wow,
      You really are confused. You have just described why this and other blogs and commentary exists. They exist to -

      - reproach, shame and expose the PBCC EB porkies (your word) because it seems PBCC EB continually fail to be honest about their sectarian separatist damaging and harmful practices and instead are continually drip feeding the media (and this site) with crappy, shallow and disingenuous PR nonsense

      Delete
  12. The Questioner15 June 2015 at 19:20

    So What is mainstream? Clearly can't have stained glass. Oh dear, that excludes most churches. PBCC alone are right after all.

    ReplyDelete
  13. 15.59

    Even by pathetic PBCC standards, that's a little too transparent to believe!

    Not a member today

    ReplyDelete
  14. I wanted to go to their church because they looked so delightfully happy all the time when I passed them in the street. I invited them over for afternoon tea and they happily accepted my invitation - but only if I ate in a separate room away from them. I still accepted this because they seemed to be such jolly folk.

    I went to their church but had to sit down the back away from them - but the warmth of the congregation could just be felt in the back row emanating from them all. I loved their church - so minimalist with no distracting stain glass windows and statues of Christ everywhere - and the no windows rule really works- I was fully concentrated on what they had to say with no distractions. Afterwards they all stood round and looked at me - but I knew this was just curiosity as these poor people have been shunned so unfairly by society and a cruel media.

    I think you people are very unfair to the PBCC - one day when I can get another one to talk to me I will engage with them again. We need more churches like the PBCC in this world without the glossy excesses of Christianity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'the no windows rule really works' Ooops, there is no rule, apparently according to one of the Times newspaper rebuttals. Do keep up with the PBCC's corner turning lord.

      And just because they we nice to you this time, doesn't mean they will be next time

      Emanating.......there's a good old PBCC parrot word!

      Delete
    2. Absolutely Anon 00:08, your posting has restored my faith in human nature. When I went they hit me round the head with a baseball bat and as the blood ran down my neck I praised God I was able to join in their gentle behaviour in this way. They then raped (but ever so gently, and with benign smiles) my wife and abused my daughters but once again I was pleased and blessed to be used as a vessel for Him. As I left they ripped my family apart and once again I was eternally grateful for this wonderful experience I was able to enjoy at the hands of these loving people. Oh if there were only 44,000 times 44,000 of them rather than a paltry 44,000. Hallelujah!

      Delete
    3. "I went to several of their meetings and found them to be mainstream, modern and very nice. No clutter, stained glass or idols to detract from Christ. Afterwards, cups of tea, cakes and pies served by friendly and charming people. "

      Rudi Gurschwasser, talking about his experiences with Hitler Youth, 1943.

      Delete
    4. Anon 16th June 00:08

      Not sure if your comments are a spoof humorous post (just having a laugh) or if your actually serious, or if your just parroting the usual propaganda lies and invented stories !

      Therein lies the problem

      The practices of PBCC EB are so far removed from Biblical Christianity they can be portrayed as a joke spoof, that is, if those practices were not so seriously sectarian, and both harmful and damaging to families and a persons mind and spirituality

      The propaganda, spin, misinformation and basic outright lies of PBCC EB are so far removed from truth and reality of what they practice, that such propaganda can be dismissed as a joke spoof, that is, if such propaganda lies were not cynically designed to attempt to influence unsuspecting ill informed authorities and general public that PBCC EB have changed when they haven’t changed at all

      I have taken the liberty of using your spoof post as a base,

      So here are some factual realities

      I didn’t want to go to their church because they looked so intensely gloomy, downcast and unhappy all the time when I passed them in the street. I wanted to invite them over for afternoon tea to show them Christian kindness and to show them that Christians in other churches do follow the Bible. But I knew they could not and would not accept my invitation due to a rule called ‘no eating’ introduced by their former leader, an alcoholic who messed about with other mens wives – This means they cant eat or drink with me even though I am a Christian and would have to take afternoon tea in a separate room to me.

      I hear that this ‘no eating’ rule and many others are part of a wider set of rules called ‘separation from evil’

      Being a Christian myself I find this sectarian practice unacceptable as its totally against Christian biblical teaching. No wonder these folk are so gloomy, its because they are living a life of repression and in a system of pharisaical sectarian rules. I feel so sorry for them and pray for them, that they might be released to see Christianity as Biblically taught, free ‘in Christ’, not trapped into a man made system of sectarianism, which I hear creates divided and separated families, which is shocking, abhorrent, unfair and cruel. There is no ‘Charity’ in that behaviour

      I also hear they are not allowed to visit or join in worship, fellowship or communion with any other Christians from any other Christian Church – because of ‘separation from evil’ - how sad, and how totally contrary to what The Christian Holy Bible teaches. These folks are shunning the rest of the Body of Christ

      I know they have no stained glass windows and their rooms for gathering are plain, but so are thousands of other Christian Churches, so this is not unique to PBCC EB, yet PBCC EB ‘separate from evil’ from them all. How unfair and cruel

      How dreadful – to call, imply or suggest that ALL other Christians are ‘evil’ ! shocking, what must Christ think ?

      What devious folk these PBCC EB are, so two faced and double minded

      Trying to make out to the public they are harmless Christians when in fact they are a harmful separatist sect who despise ALL other Christians

      Dreadful system

      Delete
    5. Anon 12.10

      Regarding the occasional Saturday burgers, it should be noted the main purpose of these events is to generate publicity; feeding the not necessarily hungry and curious doesn't equate with charity. Furthermore, the "worldlies" are not allowed in the "church" but have to eat in a tent, even in winter.

      The EB (PBCC) haven't always been so squeamish about consuming during "services". Did not former leader, the alcoholic Taylor Jnr, keep a tumbler of whisky by his seat?

      Delete
  15. Daisy or not peeb or whoever made the comment that separation from evil is God's principle of unity. Someone (bro Rev probably) asked for the bible reference for that one. I don't think you will be able to find it, but tell me, how do you know it to be a truth in any case?
    On another note along the lines of the established pecking order: " The notion of a clergyman, dispensationally the sin against the Holy Spirit" -- does that sound familiar? I think the idea was that men should not appoint men to carry out official or spiritual functions in the assembly, but rather those with spiritual gifts should be free to exercise those gifts.
    So your brothers who "take the lead" in your locality, how did they get that position? I suggest they get that position by appointment from Bruce Hales.

    Remember the last time some different brother became the local lead? Wasn't it just after he was selected to be the local brother to attend the "universal meetings"? The "elect vessel" approves that list you realize.
    Thus you have appointed clergy by a self appointed pope and thus you deny the excercise of spiritual gift amongst you, and thus you practice what you call the dispensational sin against the Holy Spirit.

    All of this unofficial officialism is brought about by a deftly constructed pecking order initiated by your pope. At least the clergy systems are honest enough to name their system as it is. The brethren system only surpasses the clergy system in sinfulness by means of dishonestly saying they have no clergy.

    Have a wonderful day,

    1 2 Mini

    ReplyDelete
  16. I went to their meetings because I was forced to go, not because I was in a spirit of submission. Then, when I grew up, I would not be forced any more, so I made friends with some young people from the C of E.

    These sweet and gentle Exclusive Brethren (PBCC) folk excommunicated my father and invalid mother to ensure that I left my home; they were then allowed back when I had gone.

    Of course, I behaved myself when living at home, respecting their Brethren ways; didn't have alcohol in the house, and so on. Imagine how surprised I was to learn, a little later, that the Brethren were all encouraged, even forced, to drink, leading to silly and bad behaviour and turning many into alcoholics; this was so that their alcoholic leader, Mr Taylor (the beloved) had some cover. I think he called it "liberty of sonship". Perhaps one of the non member contributors could explain the scriptural basis?

    Just another little heart warming glimpse of life with these splendid, open and fresh faced folk who, we are told by LJO and others, are pleasing to God despite breaking almost all His commandments (probably because they aren't "current")





    ReplyDelete
  17. We are "mainstream" because we keep saying we are. Strangely I read somthing similar in "The Hollow Men" by Nicky Hagar which also documents quite clearly some of the less admirable secret behaviour of the brethren which then became public knowledge.
    This suggests to me that dodgy organisations follow a similiar template to each other in their attempts to influence the public.

    Ricardo

    ReplyDelete
  18. Yes it was a spoof. But it is pretty well exactly what these silly buggers are themselves saying on here prior to singing off as "Not a Peeb". Trust me - people who are not Peebs - would not sign off as 'Not a Peeb' as they don't know what a Peeb is! It's easy to see what 40 plus years of dumbing down has done to them. They can't even contribute anonymously successfully.

    ReplyDelete
  19. why is the idea of a dress code so shocking? You wouldn't go to any other church dressed like you are spending the day on the beach would you?

    Its called respect. You are in the presence of God.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm in the presence of God 24 7. Even when sitting on the toilet. One of the many astounding things that Jesus death and resurrection achieved was an open heaven. The temple curtain was torn, the Holy of Holies became accessible to all who would enter. Then He sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in us - "27 ... which is Christ in you the hope of glory:" Col 1:27. So do I need to dress up to go to a church meeting? Not for God, that's for sure. For fellow congregants? Probably, but then that culturally sensitive. So in modern day England in a young church, on a hot summers day. T shirt, shorts and sandals. Yes, why not?

      Delete
    2. Anon 17th June 22:18

      A specific dress code to access a Christian Church building is not important or required. The Bible speaks expressly against showing partiality, favouritism, esteeming one above another, simply because of what they wear. I have already laid out some Biblical references for you in my post of 14 June at 21:40, I will repeat them here for you –

      1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

      James 2:1-9 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

      Reading PBCC EB commentators it appears they would not let the poor man in shabby clothing into their meetings !, yet that directly contradicts the Bible

      Anon 17th June 22:18

      You speak of a Church as ‘being in the presence of God’ yet The Bible says –

      Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

      Acts 7 45:48 It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.[k] 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him. 48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands.

      Acts 17 24:28 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.

      Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

      Joshua 1:9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”

      Psalms 145:18-19 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth. He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.

      Anon 17th June 22:18

      The Bible tells us we are in the presence of God all the time. We don’t have to specifically go to a Church to find the presence of God. We can call out to Him, pray to Him, worship Him, praise Him, wherever we are.

      Look at Christian gatherings like United Beach Missions, or Christian Camping gatherings in the outdoors, or besides a Hospital bed, or Outdoor church services, or Mission work in Africa, etc

      These are all occasions for praise, worship, prayer, in the presence of God, yet, not in a Church setting and with no specific dress code needed

      I know PBCC EB are not aware of these things because you have separated from the rest of Christianity, the Body of Christ and the Bible

      Delete
    3. That is questionable if you are referring to the PBCC fortified arena fancifully named "Gospel Hall" (a name stolen from the Open Brethren). More likely to be in the presence of Hales.

      Delete
    4. In the church I attend most of the men wear ties. Would they be asked to take their ties off if they attended the EB church to conform with the stupid edict introduced by JT junior?
      However I am speaking hypothetically as the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached in churches such as the one I attend and not the adulation of men. Most Christian believers outside your cult would be shocked and horrified if they eavesdropped at one of your indoctrination centres.

      Delete
    5. Brother Rev is wrong about the dress code of course. It clearly states that we should dress suitably in the presence of the Lord.
      That's why most people wear suits on a Sunday. Suits make us suitable.

      Delete
    6. 09:12
      As for being in the presence of God whilst having a dump on the toilet, l think we should poo poo that wee idea.
      God's holy bible teaches us to sit clothed and sensible at the feet of Jesus, not perched on a rim of a toilet bowl. Ask Brother Rev.

      Delete
    7. 22.19

      Should the suit for men include a tie, do you think? The PBCC, as far as I can judge, wear open necked shirts with maybe a cardigan. This used to be regarded as dressing down. I believe they went through a period of wearing any old thing when "worldly ties" were abolished by the beloved "Paul" of his time the profane and alcoholic Taylor Jnr

      Not a comentator

      Delete
    8. 22:29

      Go sanitise your mind. BR was not explicit regarding all locations.

      Delete
  20. I am just a simple Christian, quietly following the gentle ways of the PBCC (look at their lovely happy little faces on the website!) I have never read or contributed to this blog and I never will.

    Not a contributor

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like the PBCC beause they -
      1 Have a unique insight into the scriptures.
      2 Are God's chosen ones.
      3 Stick to the truth.
      4 Give lovely cakes and pies to the poor.
      5 Lead uncluttered lives and free from the world.
      6 Free from associations, Christmas and sinful places such as fairs and beaches.
      7 Wear crisp white shirts on Sundays.
      8 Dont have TV or Radio.
      9 Are so hospitable and friendly.
      10 Live in nice detached houses.

      Delete
    2. 23.00 (cont'd)

      11 Free from Christianity.

      Delete
    3. Of course you would expect a "mainstream church" to treat Christmas as "the end of year holiday ", mainly celebrated with a few extra drinks. For the "mainstream", PBCC knowledge of the Christian calendar is rather remote. Isn't there an anecdote that an EB member thought one of the major Christian celebrations was related to Guy Fawkes and bonfire night?

      Notta Peeb

      Delete
  21. Making a difference in status as to where you sit in the synagogue (meeting place) is a sin according to James 2:9. It even says this in the JND version.

    I wonder how the Hales people interpret that? But maybe they don't read their bibles any more.

    Phil T.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Phil! Really. You silly bugger! They read Bruce mate. Every word he says is studiously studied. They only refer to the bible to give the meeting some sort of religious flavour at the start before referring to Bruce for the rest of the meeting.

    The bible and its contents are very much a 'topic raiser' and not much more. And hence - this is why most things they do have no basis in it. (The bible.) Christians read the bible. Peebs read Bruce. One deals in goodness and tolerance - the other deals in making money - for him! And keeping people on the edge of their seats in fear.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous18 June 2015 at 23:52 - your comment "The bible and its contents are very much a 'topic raiser' and not much more" rather leapt off the screen for me. If you have time, could you briefly explain what you mean and perhaps offer an example?

      These Exclusive Brethren, now the PBCC, have often declared in public, "We go by the Bible" or something similar, and I therefore thought that the Bible would be common ground between us and we could have a conversation/correspondence on that basis. Sadly, except with two older members of the UK Exclusive Brethren/PBCC, this hasn't proved possible, and I'm still astonished that Bible study isn't part of the PBCC meetings' programme.

      To the contributor above who was puzzled at my concern about being asked to conform to the PBCC dress code - you may not know that for nearly 25 years we had Brethren neighbours (in the Taylor, Taylor Jnr, Symington, Hales Exclusive Brethren). If they had looked, they would have seen that on a daily basis I always dress respectably, whether setting off for work or going shopping or for a walk in the park or making my way to church. A dress code should never have been an issue between us.

      How do these Brethren react to their members who originated in Africa, the Caribbean or the Asian subcontinent and who might like to wear the clothes of their birthplace to a meeting? In the church where I worship this is often the case and nobody turns a hair. Indeed, we tend to celebrate that we're a diverse congregation.

      Delete
  23. I love Bruce! I would lay down my life for him! Why would we bother with that weird book the bible when we have Bruce? Bruce 3:16 - For we so loved dear Bruce that we abused all our children, knowing that whoever kow-tows to him shall not languish in jail but have a seat on the front row.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Always easy to spot the contributions from peebs here, they look like they've been written by a six-year-old. Not surprising: anyone who believes the earth is only 4000 years old is either borderline insane, terminally idiotic or the victim of a sinister brain washing programme.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 23:44

      Indeed, those of us that don't fit any of your 3 categories know it is closer to 6000 years now.

      1 2 Mini

      Delete
    2. This is the kind of question that is best answered by empirical evidence, i.e. evidence that you can directly observe, measure and calculate. There are several independent ways of estimating the age of the earth from empirical observations, and they all converge on roughly the same answer, about 4,500,000,000 years. All the mainstream churches recognise that empirical evidence is one of our most reliable sources of truth, and any respectable system of belief must gratefully embrace it.

      Delete
  25. It's Monday, prayer meeting day so can we just stop a minute and pray for any brethren out there camping, that they may be able to dump in safety................

    Dixcel of Dock Green

    ReplyDelete