Monday, 13 April 2015

Schools run by people who are against "democracy, equality, and tolerance".

From today's Times newspaper;


  1. Try anti-semitism instead you would have a bigger target! Although most certainly against the law in either chosen hatred.

  2. The Exclusive Brethren aka Plymouth Brethren Christian Church are certainly against ‘democracy’ as they are not allowed to vote and are taught that ‘democracy’ is not Gods thought. However, they seem happy to be involved in intense political influence

    The Exclusive Brethren aka Plymouth Brethren Christian Church are certainly against ‘equality’ as they are taught they will be ‘defiled’ and ‘contaminated’ by any person not in the group. Nor are they allowed certain careers such as doctor, nurse, fireman, dentist, lawyer, etc. Nor do they accept equal roles for women.

    The Exclusive Brethren aka Plymouth Brethren Christian Church are certainly against ‘tolerance’ as they are not allowed to eat or drink with any outside their group, nor are they allowed to take part in fellowship, worship, or communion with any other Christians. Breaking these rules results in being withdrawn from, shunned and cut off from family and friends for ever. Those of a different sexual persuasion are not tolerated and there are serious questions regarding their attitude towards those of ethnic minorities.

  3. So so if you want democracy, then you will certainly agree the PBCC have choices. Choose the evil or the good dear complainer...You can"t have it both ways

    1. The EB don't have choices

      It's support the leader fully or you're OUT

  4. Anon 17.10: not sure if I understand your cryptic comment.

    What is good about dirty political interference from hypocritical non voters?

    What is good about not joining the professions (many of them caring) so that you can concentrate on personal financial enrichment?

    What is good about the subjection of women? (Unless you are an unreconstructed PBCC male).

    What is good about being cut off from the body of Christian fellowship (assuming you consider yourself a Christian).

    What is good about potentially being cut off from family?

    What is good about racism and bigotry?

    Better take a reality check and turn away from evil, dear Anon; choose the straight path away distortion, misinformation, half truths, smoke and mirrors and denial.

    Not a Former Member

    1. I'm not democratic, but that's ok because democracy is about freedom of choice.
      Why all the complaining?
      Also what are "British values" ? Depends what kind of values. Indeed, what do we put value on? Traditional family values or anti family? Sad to see a once Christian government turning against marriage. Broken Britain is breaking down rapidly so better back peddle fast David Cameron...

    2. Democracy
      “Democracy is indeed about freedom of choice, but only up to a point. When persons so called “freedom of choice” results in harm & detriment to others, then that “freedom of choice” has to stop !.

      Family values
      It is the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren who are “anti family” because they divide and separate families if one member leaves the group. This results in persons being cut off, shunned, divided and separated from the rest of their family for the rest of their lives. That is not traditional family values, that is anti family !

      Anti Marriage
      The UK government is not anti marriage, that’s just propaganda from the PBCC EB. The UK government support marriage, they have just added same sex marriage, that’s all.

    3. 'Sad to see a once Christian government turning against marriage'

      It is 'more sad to see a once Christian church (Peebs) turning against marriage' when it suits their world aims

    4. Quite what constitutes a "Christian government" in your nostalgic mind, Anon 21Apr 16:53, I have no idea. The peebs have always had a very peculiar habit of referring to various areas of the world as either Christian or deeply suspect and unsafe (except when one is doing business in one of the latter areas... then it's been ok, since Halesian times). Weird, and entirely lacking in logic (spiritual or otherwise).

      As Anon 22Apr 16:23 hints, perhaps what the EB/PBCC could look at is the dearth of anything resembling Christian values (love, truth, kindness, humility) remaining in the hearts of members of their so-called church?

      The love of money is the root of all evil. Interesting that you only thought to use the term 'peddle', rather than pedal (when you addressed David Cameron in your post Anon 21Apr 16:53).

  5. Ah ha we have some buy-in to our tripe from 'not former members'. Keep up the good work LM we'll hook a few more perverted fellows,

  6. It's nice to see the PBCC are back on this blog after their stunned silence at the expose by The Times:


    I guess it's taken this time for their leaders to reassure them they still are God's uniquely chosen ones and this was a wicked attack, and now they're creeping out of their self imposed bunkers to preen themselves.

    My question: Are you Christians? Who is your god? Jesus or mammon?

  7. Apparently, a number of "perverted fellows" have been shielded by the PBCC over the decades; and one or two exposed to the courts. Do be careful, Anon mouse 6.55, in your attempts at "amusing" banter!

    1. Banter.. love it! :)

    2. That Tim Banter, is he from Yeovil?

  8. I'm trying to get My head round our PBCC supporter friend's claim that the PBCC people have choices., especially in the context of education. University? Being a solicitor? Voting? Attending your local public school? It is well known that Focus Schools use unqualified teachers to teach so-called Bible studies. This nebulous subject includes formally promoting the prohibiting of voting, which is probably illegal. Perhaps our pro-EB friend could justify this activity.

  9. I also agree that the British government is turning against Christian values. It's really sad to see the family unit being eroded further by the acceptance of so called "gay marriage" by the prime minister.
    I am not in the PBCC, but like other christians l think the total collapse of society in the UK can only be j a few years away. Political correctness is destroying the spirit of our nation day by day. To hell with it.
    Ever considered God's rights?

    1. Anon 23 April 17:13

      What hyperbole and hysterical unfounded baseless nonsense you speak

      Your comments come straight out of the PBCC Exclusive Brethren box of prejudice, spin and sectarian fearmongering nonsense

      The family Unit -
      The British government is NOT turning against Christian values. Where is your evidence for such a ridiculous claim ?.

      The family unit is NOT being eroded by the acceptance of gay marriage. Heterosexual couples are perfectly entitled to get married and have children and stay as a family unit, no one has proposed that to end !

      However, the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren DO promote & support the ending of the family unit !
      If a member leaves the group, the PBCC EB rule that the person is shunned, cut off, withdrawn from and separated from the rest of the family unit, for the rest of their lives !

      Collapse of society a few years away –
      What utter codswallop. Where is your evidence ?

      However, the PBCC Exclusive Brethren Do promote the collapse of the family unit, as they rule that if a member leaves the group, the person is shunned, cut off, withdrawn from and separated from the rest of the family unit, for the rest of their lives !

      Ever considered Gods rights –
      Yes indeed, have you considered Gods rights. His word teaches that Christians are part of One Body able to have fellowship, worship, communion together and eat and drink together. Yet you the PBCC EB disobey Gods Word and separate from ALL other Christians and refuse your members to fellowship, worship, have communion, or even to eat or drink with any other Christians outside the PBCC EB.

      Have YOU considered Gods rights ?

    2. Anonymous23 April 2015 at 17:13 says "Ever considered God's rights?"

      But which ? particular God .

      There is a number to choose from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities

      And even then, what makes you think that your particular belief, about Gods rights .Is likely to be any more correct, than what some other groups of humans have decided to believe about their Gods rights

      It is impossible that decision made by the minds of so many types of humans in regards to these matters, are ever based on conclusion that are totally objective in value

      You can consider what you think God rights might be ,all you wish . Yet you may never ever be able to prove it to be so 100%

      What makes you even think that you do actually know what God wants ?

      For even you are forced to need to be basing your belief, on faith right ?.

      In times past. It was the "politically correct" nature of a "Christian English nation", that had then allowed for a number of people to be wrongfully burned at the stake .

      This politically correct nature of a Christian nation England, has also long allowed for that our families would have been ripped apart by religion.

      And for far too long a time too, it was considered to be politically incorrect , that any of us might ever be allowed to dare even question the fairness of it.

      And so i say to hell with that kind political correctness.

      If those were British values .Then may Christian Britain quickly learn how to be utterly ashamed of it

    3. Anonymous24 April 2015 at 11:07 says "Yes indeed, have you considered Gods rights. His word teaches that Christians are part of One Body able to have fellowship, worship, communion together and eat and drink together. Yet you the PBCC EB disobey Gods Word and separate from ALL other Christians and refuse your members to fellowship, worship, have communion, or even to eat or drink with any other Christians outside the PBCC EB. "

      Evidently God is a bigoted separatist .Evidently he only permits that Christians would have fellowship and eat and drink together.And so forth

      It is this very same attitude that lies right at the root of whom the exclusive brethren group would finally become

      If this be British Christian values. Then very little wonder Christianity is in decline

      For how horridly embarrassing it must surely have begun to be, for many English Christian youth of today, to ever need to be known as being of any part of the congregation among this lot

    4. Perhaps a member of the PBCC (EB) or someone who describes themselves as a supporter or sympathiser could explain what they mean by "Christian Values". In the Public Forums there is evidence provided from the printed "ministry of BDH that his father (JSH) was never converted.
      All mainstream evangelical Christian denominations would describe a Christian as a person who, realising they were a sinner, repented towards God and trusted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Is this no longer necessary for members of the Exclusive Brethren? I realise that infants in the EB partake of the Lord's Supper before they understand what they are doing. This begs the question how many believers in the Lord Jesus there are in the EB if it is accepted that conversion is not necessary.
      Was JSH not a sinner? Did he not need conversion? It has been stated that he did not sin as a responsible adult. Do members or sympathisers of the EB believe this to be the case?
      The Exclusive Brethren lack credibility if they promote such heresy. How do they explain Romans 3 verses 10-12? Perhaps they consider BDH's authoritative ministry supersedes scripture?
      Answers please.

  10. With the number of broken families the PBCC have created over decades, it is a struggle for some folk to maintain the family unit. Children taken from parents, grandparents not knowing their grandchildren, childen unaware of some of their uncles, aunts and cousins and so on; any permutation you care to consider. More enforced wreckage then that perpetrated by "worldly" society.

    Who will the non voting, undemocratic PBCC leafleting teams work for now that the Conservatives have let them down? I don't think there is even a fringe group that will tick all the boxes. "The English Democratic League" might be too democratic!

    Speaking of considering "God's rights" do we detect the anon hand of "non member"(depending on the month) Leonardo?

    Not a Former Member this Month

  11. I have often thought it strange that PBCC members arrogantly assume to know the mind of God. Although I do not possess their particular gifts, it seems bizarre to propose that God is subject to conjectures considering "rights" and "political correctness", and so on. My impression would be that God is not constrained and constricted by man's excursions into systems and political thought.

    Not a Former Member

  12. Speaking of choice -
    We have little choice, but agree with those remarks about the decline in the UK and the apostasy that is now showing its face in governmental departments.
    It's simply not intelligent or wise to pretend that this is a growing problem in the UK to the extent that many parents are now electing to school their children at home. Why be so surprised that the PBCC are doing the same? I take my hat off to these people for their courage and stance against the tide of apostasy that is darkening even the minds of those who hold government posts.
    The UK has become a place where christians are being edged out. Worse still, children and parents of real christian faith are being attacked for speaking out against "gay marriage" So in other words - Those here who support such an practice cannot claim to know Christ. Evil cannot dwell with good. God is clear in the bible about homosexual practise and leaves the reader in no doubt of it being unatural and against the laws of God. Our nation has gotton away from God and now we are seeing the tragic consequences of it in the rapid breakdown of society. Can it get worse? I think yes, much worse to the extent when God may intervene and bring this dispensation to a close. A few years? Yes that's looking increasingly possible.
    Some silly fools here who are in all intent and purpose are speaking against marriage. Marriage as defined by a man and a women. Such a bond is of God. For the sake of the wicked fools, let's go back to God's creation. Do we have Adam and Eve or Adam Steve? Aha...there you are. Nothing more to be said or debated over.

    So you sorry bunch, quit fighting God and come over to God's side. He's not willing that any should perish.
    Do you want to dwell with the devil in Hell or will you now repent and come to know Jesus as your saviour? Attacking the PBCC is not working because it would appear these lovely people are under divine protection.

    Neither a member or a complainer

    1. Anonymous, or “Neither a member or a complainer”,

      You talk about apostasy. It is true that UK society, including its legislature, executive, civil service, courts, police forces, schools, universities, news media, churches and various official institutions during the last few centuries have moved away from a literalist or fundamentalist form of Christianity, while maintaining, supporting and increasingly promoting a lot of the spirit and values of Christianity, such as protecting the vulnerable, the poor, the racial, sexual and religious minorities, sharing and caring, pursuing truth and justice, promoting equality, social harmony, health and welfare. You refer to this change as “apostasy.”

      In a limited sense you might be right, but it is only a turning away from literalism, not from core Christian values. I do not think it is as harmful as the tide of radical apostasy that has swept over the Taylor/Symington/Hales fellowship during the last 55 years, which has inflicted mortal injury to core Christian values while maintaining a sort of traditional literalism that is as useless as it is false.

      You say, “now we are seeing the tragic consequences of it in the rapid breakdown of society.” This is a view that has been strenuously asserted in Brethren ministry for many years, and I think you probably believe it sincerely, but nearly all the evidence points convincingly in exactly the opposite direction. Brethren ministry has promoted a very large untruth. UK society is now more stable than at any time in our long history. The prevalence of various ills such as poverty, illness, crime, ignorance and conflict are all close to their all-time lows, and vastly lower than they were in the days of our parents and grandparents. Read the works of Steven Pinker if you want to examine the evidence of all this.

      You say, “God is clear in the bible about homosexual practise and leaves the reader in no doubt of it being unatural and against the laws of God.” But it is not at all as clear as you say. Some of the homosexual practices in Paul’s time were indeed unnatural, and worthy of censure, but not all. Coercing people into a heterosexual lifestyle is also unnatural. I could elaborate on this if you like.

      Also, your dictum about Adam and Steve carries no weight at all. The fact that Adam and Eve were apparently heterosexual does not for a minute entail that we all must be the same. They were also created naked and given the job of gardeners. You might as well insist that we all ought to be naked and work as gardeners, or if we feel the need for clothes we must make them out of fig leaves.

  13. Anon 17:20
    God has the answers. He answers those that fear him and he also answers those who love his commandments. Christ is the answer to our problems and sins.

    You can't blame the brethren for your bad attitude.


    1. Dot
      You say Christ has the answers to our problems and our sins. I agree.
      However the PBCC does not have answers to the matters raised by Anon 17.20 on 28 Apr5il.
      Why is it promulgated in the PBCC that John Hales never sinned since the age of 12 when any reasonable person knows this to be untrue? Do you believe this? Which do you place more trust in - the bible or PBCC ministry? It cannot be both because the bible does not support the extreme separatist teaching of PBCC which I suggest is sinful insisting as it does on occasions of husbands leaving their wives and families.

      Someone who loves the brethren but hates the EB system

  14. It's really nice to hear that the PBCC are standing up against this gay marriage thing.

    It seems that traditional marriage is still on the decline and yet incredibly there are laws coming in which will make things worse.
    There are also other issues. A friend of mine was unable to pursue a job in the NHS because the application form was worded in such a way to effectively discriminate against a person of Christian faith.It's not just tragic, it's a frightening glimpse of what may come.
    I understand that this is now common place on most pubic service application forms and increasingly so since 2006. If this is the case, l can only sympathise with the PBCC and can fully understand why they choose not to do this kind of work. Such a thing on an application form is not only against christian principles, but also against diversity and equality. We need an end to this circus which is blighting the lives of ordinary people.
    The law is now being used against us as we try to defend the constitutional right of defending our civil liberties. This liberty includes the practice of christian values and family life.
    l am thankful for your prayers and support as we seek to appeal to MPs for this matter to be discussed.

    Rev S D Hawthorn

    1. Rev. S. D. Hawthorn,

      Welcome to this Web site. We need a diversity of views to keep us all balanced, and this is the first time anyone here has put forward these views in a reasoned manner.

      There are a few points in your post that you could usefully clarify. What is the actual wording on the job application forms that you object to, and how does it detract from diversity and equality, or blight the lives of ordinary people?

      Which provisions of the law make it difficult to enjoy your civil liberties or prevent the practice of Christian values and family life?


      The Rev S D Hawthorn @ 29th April @ 23:50

      Please can you tell us what Christian Church you belong to in the UK ?

      I would like to clarify a few matters you see

      I have checked some records and found no details of a Rev S D Hawthorn in the UK, which raises many suspicions.

      You see the PBCC aka Exclusive Brethren are well known, on these and many other commentary blogs, to masquerade and hide behind fictitious names and official sounding positions, in order to add some kind of authority or credibility to their sectarian extremist separatist hyperbole.

      The PBCC EB have been and continue to be extraordinarily devious in their propaganda and spin, in order to desperately deceive authorities.

      Suspicions are raised even further when we look at what you have written. The claims you make are straight from the manual of PBCC EB propaganda and spin.

      For example,

      Your comments regards the NHS application have been used before on this website word for word by a member of the PBCC EB. Those comments were found to be false made up nonsense. Your comments are also balderdash.

      Here is a link to a NHS standard application form.


      There is absolutely NOTHING in this form which warrants the comments you have made. There is NO ‘discrimination against a person of Christian faith’ . There are NO details ‘against Christian principles’. There are NO details ‘against diversity and equality’. There are NO details against ‘family life’ or ‘Christian values’


      Readers will understand why we should be very suspicious of the person claiming to be the Rev S D Hawthorn as the evidence points to the person being a PBCC EB spin master puppet.

      A real genuine Christian sick of PBCC EB lies

    3. How dare you suggest that The Rev S D Hawthorn is not a real person. I am an ordained minister in the PBCC and will not entertain such fantasies.

      The Very Rev and Very Genuine Ponsonby Smythe Darby-Raven-Taylor-Symington-Hales-God. Read Galoshes 19:119-1119.

    4. Furthermore,

      The supposed Rev S D Hawthorn should be aware of the following practiced, believed and propagated by the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church aka Exclusive Brethren

      - All clergy (including all vicars, reverends, pastors, deacons, elders, etc) are a ‘Sin against the Holy Spirit’ as taught by JN Darby

      - A church that has ANY such clergy and ordained minister ‘does not have the spirit of God’ as taught by former leader James Taylor

      - If a person was to leave the PBCC EB and attend the supposed Rev S D Hawthorn’s church, that person would be withdrawn from, cut off, shunned and separated from by the PBCC EB for leaving ‘the truth’, being declared ‘iniqutous’ and ‘unfit to be at the Lords Table’. This process would mean the person attending Rev S D Hawthorn’s church would be cut off from all remaining family and friends inside the PBCC EB for ever.

      - That to be called a Reverend is ‘taking Gods place’ and that theology teaching, training and seminary is ‘not of the assembly’

      - That no other Christian from any other Church including the supposed Rev S D Hawthorn is fit to eat or drink with.

      - That the Lords Table in the supposed Rev S D Hawthorn’s church is a ‘table of demons’ as taught by James Taylor

      The supposed Rev S D Hawthorn,

      No real honest genuine bible following Christian would support a group which practices such sectarian extremist non biblical non Christian, rubbish, especially when the practice of such sectarian nonsense results in harm, damage and division in family life, family values and society

      The pinnacle of hypocrisy and lies spread by the PBCC EB is that they somehow want to stand up for family values, society and Christian values, Yet, in the background they DESTROY families and family values and sectarian extremism damages society and they ignore, contradict and disobey Christian values.

      The PBCC EB are just a bunch of lying con artists

    5. I shall be sorry if any of these responses has the effect of silencing the Rev. S. D. Hawthorn, whoever he is. Dialogue with Brethren supporters is valuable and this is one of the few places where it takes place.

    6. Mr William Hawthorn of Maidstone, makes a lot of money supplying the NHS

      I would think his family and employees know a lot of inside the NHS


    7. The PBCC have a history of putting up fake "friends" who mysteriously enjoy a unique position with the Brethren. Either that, or they are professionally employed as propagandists. They were first notable on "The Third Sector" site which extensively reported on the CC dispute. Anyone who dared to criticise the Brethren was then ripped apart by, the likes of "John Handel" et al, as haters of Christianity and these "lovely evangelical folk". (Going for the jugular). Stooge comments were then "liked" by half a dozen similar, regular characters. One "Margaret Finch" last seen still banging on defending the indefensible.

      All these characters have always been coy to define their denominations; this is understandable since it is hard to think of any Christian group that would actively support the PBCC. Also, it would mean telling a downright lie instead of merely spreading deceit (if there is a difference).

    8. Meanwhile, Heather and I remain 'unreliable and disgraced' sources of the Times article, according to the PBCC's website.

      The tawdry scenes at my father's burial caused by PBCC interference in a non-PBCC funeral remain unaccounted for, despite the CC's insistence on a Deed of Variation which requires them to act otherwise.

      The defamation claim grows, the longer that statement appears on the PBCC's sickening, self-congratulatory website


      Mark R Elliott

    9. For a long time I've been concerned about the poor communication skills of the Exclusive Brethren who have renamed themselves the PBCC. The use of pseudonyms in correspondence online doesn't help, but now that the PBCC admits to being a mainstream church and to behaving openly, honestly and fairly, I'm hoping that they will address the issue of how to communicate with non-members.

      They have an uphill task in this matter because of their tradition of ecclesiastical and interpersonal separation.

  15. To 'Neither a member or a complainer':

    Just a suggestion. Why not stop burdening yourself with all this nonsense and go out and lead a rewarding and fulfilling life? It's not easy I know, with all that is ingrained in us. But I overcame it and wouldn't have missed 'real life' for the world.


    1. RLS
      It is possible not to be "burdened with all this nonsense" and at the same time "lead a rewarding and fulfilling life".
      Dialogue with members of the EB (PBCC) as we know is uncommon and often difficult to initiate. I personally welcome any opportunity to engage with members in whatever guise they choose. (It is generally not difficult to identify one of their members either physically or by what they write!)

    2. I agree with Gal 5.1 that we should engage with EB members in whatever guise they choose, and not press them to reveal their ecclesiastical affiliation.

      For years now it has been tacitly recognised that members of the Hales fellowship usually pretend not to be when they contribute to discussions on the Internet. It doesn’t worry me. I even know some of their real identities, but I would not expose them. Let us not silence them or scare them away. They are helping us to understand how Brethren think. That is valuable, because understanding a problem gives us a better chance of resolving it or at least mitigating it, and understanding makes it easier to forgive. As the French proverb says, tout comprendre, c'est tout pardoner.

      Admittedly, their ploy is deceitful, but given the pressures from their own Brethren and others, they can hardly risk being anything else. Let us ignore little white lies and see what we can do about the whopping great black ones.

  16. 19.43
    The Rev Hawthorn is greatly valued as one of some Godly men who stand for the truth within the capacity God has been pleased to set him in.

    The decline in the UK is particularly alarming by anyone's standards, so the sooner you charming lot knuckle-down, the less there will be to worry about.

    My esteemed friend and learned colleague Rev Hawthorn has at least got the moral intelligence and courage to defend the PBCC's remarkable refusal to allow evil into their homes, businesses and families. Sooner or later the issue with governments is going to have to be faced. The choice is either a return to whole heartedly supporting Christian values or the total collapse of our society. We have some who mock here, but a time of reckoning is coming for those who have rejected the Glad Tidings, including responsible persons in government who should know far better to insult the faith.

    God is not willing that any should perish, but he will not allow his commandments to be mocked.
    The Western world particularly, is ripe for judgement. When a UK Prime minister insults the institution of marriage which is of God, then we know the day is very near. God has yet to come to the people of the East, but we leave that with him.
    This is somewhat different in context with those in the East who have come to Christ. A detail that is not understood by some who are still in ignorance.
    We know that God will have the most, amazing as this may seem.

    Better you stop demeaning God's view on marriage Ian. Sad to see a man in his closing days so opposed to marriage as set out by God. Your comments in support of " homosexual marriage" shows us exactly what your state is.

    At least have a shred of respect towards your creator God. He has sent his beloved son as a provision of grace so that we may escape the coming wrath about to be poured out on the earth.
    Love the PBCC and become one more of the thousands who have recognised the unique position
    which is going on to the rapture. Will you be included or left behind to the chaos that is going to follow.

    Choose Christ and his saints or choose the Devil and moral death for eternity?

    Leonardo J Octavianus

    Former member, lover of Christ and
    Supporter of God's people.

    1. Leonardo,

      You mention “God’s view of marriage” and “marriage as set out by God.”

      You would have to agree that the Holy Scriptures set out several views of marriage. There were many men of God with multiple wives and/or concubines (Solomon, David, Abraham, Caleb, Jacob, Gideon etc.) The scriptures also say that a victim of rape must marry her rapist (Deut. 22:28-29) and a childless widow must be inseminated by her brother-in-law (Genesis 38:6-10). Under Moses’ command, the Israelites were ordered to kill all the male Midianites and non-virgins but keep the virgin female children for themselves. If a slave-owner gives a wife to one of his slaves, and they have children, and the slave has finished his six years of service, then to exercise his right to freedom he must go out alone. His wife and children remain the property of the slave-owner (Exodus 21:4). You may also remember that Jonathan’s love for David was wonderful, surpassing women’s love (2 Samuel 1:26).

      When some people insist on following Leviticus 20:13 while ignoring all these other scriptures concerning sex and marriage, it seems to me rather arbitrary, a sort of pick-and-choose morality. How do you know that your own pick-and-choose is better than someone else’s pick-and-choose?

      You say, “The decline in the UK is particularly alarming by anyone's standards”. I think you must have been reading either Brethren ministry or the Daily Mail. Both are extremely unreliable sources of information. There are short-term fluctuations in all sorts of evil, but the long-term trend has been for UK society to aspire to and attain higher moral standards, (along with higher standards of health, life expectancy, peace, comfort, safety and learning) and the same is true of all the countries in which reliable statistics have been collected. I wrote an article about this recently on WikiPeebia.

      I don’t think the proportion of gay people has changed detectably. The only major change is that we don’t hang them, jail them, persecute them or discriminate against them anymore. Nor should we. That is what I call moral progress, and the Brethren have a lot of catching up to do.

      You say the Brethren refuse to allow evil into their homes. I do not agree with that statement. I have seen some evil books in Brethren’s homes, some of them bound in green and some in a kind of pigskin colour.

    2. Leonardo J Octavianus said "The decline in the UK is particularly alarming by anyone's standards, so the sooner you charming lot knuckle-down, the less there will be to worry about.

      The choice is either a return to whole heartedly supporting Christian values or the total collapse of our society."

      Yes indeed Leonardo J Octavianus . The happiest countries are also the least religious countries http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/2zszb1/the_happiest_countries_are_also_the_least/

      Such moral decline. That people within these godless countries would dare to be enjoying life. What a horrid disgrace

      How will the econmy hold up in the long term,within these godless countries ,if they wont allow the religious cults the right to be continually siphoning off money from the government coffers

    3. Nail hit on head!!

    4. LJO sagely comments that ' God has yet to come to the people of the East'

      Where was Jesus allegedly born? Ah yes, just west of Bahrain!

  17. Leonardo - you refer to the Rev'd Hawthorn as "learned". I'd be most interested to read anything he has published, if you would kindly post titles, publishers, year of publication and, where appropriate, ISBN numbers.

    Alternatively, if you could let us know the address of the church where he is a minister I'd make an effort to attend a service there and perhaps hear him preach.

    (It's a solemn thing to adopt the title 'Rev'd' and it usually means that the person has been trained and ordained as a minister in a mainstream church.)

  18. LJO
    I am interested in your comment "God has yet to come to the people of the East"
    Like me I am sure you have read of the growth of Christianity generally in South Korea so I confess that I am one of those in ignorance in understanding what you mean by that statement. Perhaps you could elaborate further.
    By the way I love the rank and file members of the PBCC (Exclusive Brethren) and am very sad at the way many who would like to be free from that system are trapped there through fear, finance, family and friends. As a former member you will have some understanding of my sentiments.

  19. Thank goodness Leo J is back. His contributions have me in stiches and best of all he teaches me how to show black as while and white as black - he does it so convincingly.

    As I have is said in the past, I often agree 100% with what Leo says - the main difference is he then somehow links it with the behaviour and beliefs of the Exclusive Brethren and with that I agree with him -200%.

    For instance "Choose Christ and his saints or choose the Devil and moral death for eternity?" Absolutely. But to adopt the former, one would have to wash his hands completely of the evil family-breaking cult known as the Exclusive Brethren, and for the latter I suggest you ignore God and Holy Scripture and put all your faith and effort into the worship of one mortal con-man and you might be getting close.

    Keep it up buddy - you're one of the most ridiculous and highly amusing contributors I know!!

  20. And there are an estimated 50 million Christians in China - and who do they regard as their spiritual father - Watchman Nee - who was rejected by the Peebs!!

  21. Given the "decline in the United Kingdom" which I suspect is largely due to the passing of legislation allowing same-sex marriage, and that this was done by a relatively right-wing party; who could the Peebs possibly support in the forthcoming election?
    Since the Conservatives have let them down, and the Greens plan to remove funding from their schools, could they swallow their bile and support Ed Milliband, or the Lib-Dems as the least offensive option?
    Maybe they will find themselves with most in common with UKIP! Hope they buy Nigel a pint.


  22. Apparently there is a plan by the PBCC to open 2 small meetings in China and 3 larger meetings in India by end of 2017. One thing is for sure, these folks do surprise us. For China to allow churches to be built is a major step forward and shows that change is coming to that land.
    ln fact it overturns the idea there are no chinks in the PBCC armour.

    Yes, must admit it all ties-up with God coming to the people of the East. Nothing is impossible with God.
    We ought to be so thankful the PBCC can influence governments.

  23. Trade with China and India could be quite profitable for PBCC business, so I imagine the CEO would be in favour of expanding there; shame these countries were cast aside over the decades, without the financial motive, though.

  24. Dear Anon 19.49

    More evidence required. However, most Christian denominations have been working and teaching in these areas for up to two hundred years, in far more difficult circumstances, and liaising with Government officials.

    On a point of interest, having lured the congregation in perhaps with a pie and a Bible, will they be encouraged to separate from family members who may not want to join? Also, bearing in mind different cultural customs, will attempts be made to introduce the new congregations to alcohol and the PBCC beverage of choice? I understand that when teetotal brethren were forced to drink alcohol to keep Taylor Jnr company, many couldn't handle it and became drunk and silly. Some, sadly, turning into alcoholics along the way.

    The only way the PBCC influence Governments is by stealth, cunning, lies, misinformation and half truths. If the UK is anything to go by, democratic governments eventually wise up to the PBCC business, wealth and right wing agenda.

  25. I really love the PBCC.
    What's all the fuss about?

    1. Well I really hate what the PBCC are all about, but they make such a fuss when I complain and send me threatening legal letters. Double standards comes to mind.