Wednesday, 28 January 2015

PBCC beware

Beware the line between tax planning and tax avoidance, Charity Commission warns

A paper explaining the regulator's policy on tax reliefs was published on its website last week, although one tax adviser feels the guidance is over-cautious

The Charity Commission has warned trustees to take care not to cross the line between tax planning and tax avoidance. The warning comes in a new paperexplaining the commission’s policy on charity tax reliefs.

The potential for abuse of charities for tax-avoidance purposes has been much discussed in recent years, especially in relation to the Cup Trust scandal, which led to legislative plans to crack down on such abuse. These  were dropped after the government said they would have had a "disproportionate and unacceptable effect" on legitimate charities.

The new document, which appeared on the commission’s website last week, says that trustees have a duty to "engage in reasonable and prudent tax planning". It says trustees should take advantage of available tax reliefs in line with the spirit in which they were created, while being wary of arrangements that afforded significant private benefit to third parties.

However, it warns against "tax arrangements which exploit tax legislation artificially, particularly where they serve to benefit private interests, as well as those of the charity". It says such arrangements risk investigation by the commission or HM Revenue & Customs, and that this could damage the charity and the reputation of the sector, which in turn could mean the "potential loss of other tax reliefs to the sector as a result of, or as a necessary by-product of, action to stop or close such schemes".

The document says: "Charities need to consider carefully the point at which reasonable and prudent tax planning becomes tax avoidance. In particular, when trustees are considering proposals for tax arrangements that are supported by favourable legal opinion from a tax specialist, they should in such circumstances always take professional advice from a reputable adviser unconnected with the proposed arrangements."

Graham Elliott, a consultant at the law firm Withers, which specialises in VAT, said he believed this was a reference to charities being approached by people who were trying to profit from selling a chance to join a tax-evasion scheme.

"If someone approaches you with a proposed scheme that wasn’t part of your thinking – a pre-packaged solution they're probably also trying to sell to others, which commonly comes with a supportive barrister's opinion – it tends to suggest a contrived arrangement, and the Charity Commission's view that you should get a second opinion seems sensible," he said.

Elliott said this did not mean that you should get a second opinion after you seek the guidance of a tax adviser.

According to Elliott, the guidance is over-cautious in its discussion of what is acceptable tax planning and what is unacceptable. He said: "Some of the examples they give of acceptable planning are not really planning at all, they're just good administration – and, by contrast, their examples of unacceptable practice are clearly unacceptable.

"This omits the critical middle ground, which is where the line in question is more likely to be found and in danger of being crossed."

The guidance says that engaging in "serial and contrived financial transactions involving charities and companies which seek to disguise what may have been a taxable transaction" would be considered a breach of trustee duties, and meanwhile makes clear that it is acceptable to encourage eligible donors to claim Gift Aid on donations.

Jane Hobson, head of policy at the commission, said: "The guidance clearly states that tax matters are for HMRC and that tax evasion, tax fraud and other abuses of the tax system are also dealt with by HMRC.

"However, where trustees use fiscal reliefs in a way that is in breach of their duty to act prudently and in the best interests of their charity, the commission will have very serious regulatory concerns."


  1. Why are you posting this on here Lawrie. The Lord protects his own and those who work tirlessly in his service.


  2. Patmos
    Tax evasion is against the law and is evidence of unrighteousness. The posting is simply highlighting that Her Majesty's Revenues and Customs will investigate and crack down on such abuses.
    I am sure you are not suggesting that the Lord would protect persons or charities that engage in such shameful practices.

  3. Indeed Sir Patmos -
    Such a post is intended to be a slur. Whilst I am not a member of the PBCC, I happen to know they are an honest bunch and contribute a great deal of money and resources into the community.
    Ahh - I would so love to be a member of the PBCC. No expensive holidays, Tacky big Weddings, Expensive divorces, Christmas gifts or Credit cards. That explains why they pay all their taxes and still donate generously to Joe public and the good causes.

    If anything, they probably pay more tax than they really have to.
    Isn't it amazing when small minded people are so obsessed with finding fault.
    Wonderful Christians so let us give credit where credit is due.

    Out of felly and no telly

    1. Anon 28th Jan 23:32 (Out of felly and no telly)

      “Whilst I am not a member of the PBCC” – I don’t believe that statement for one minute because the rest of your post gives you away as in fact a member so you are clearly being very deceitful. Do you think that is a Christian thing to do ?

      “I happen to know they are an honest bunch…..” – How do you know that if you say you are not a member ?. You clearly are not aware of the dishonesty, deceit, half truths, obfuscation, misinformation and pr spin nonsense tactics used by the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church Exclusive Brethren since 2012 in their campaign against the UK Charity Commission. Or, in fact you are aware of all that and are just being dishonest yourself in your current comment ?

      “Ahh - I would so love to be a member of the PBCC” – You see Anon 28th Jan 23:32 that silly comment gives you away as in fact being a dishonest deceitful member of the PBCC yourself !. To become a member of the PBCC would involve the following actions –

      - If the rest of your family, including wife, husband, children, grandparents don’t want to become members then you would have to separate from them
      - If your Christian friends and family don’t want to become members then you would have to separate from them too as well as any other friends
      - This separation would mean no eating or drinking, physical separation (despite what you have claimed to the UK Charity Commission), no living together, no associating with, no birthdays, no funerals, no weddings, in practical terms it means literally cutting off all your family and friends and having nothing more to do with them
      - You would not be allowed to meet with or worship with any other Christians outside the walls of the PBCC
      - You would have to agree that the PBCC is the only place a Christian should be and all other Christians and Christian Church’s are in error, iniquitous, worldly, don’t have the light and should be separated from
      - You would have to agree with the ‘ministry’ of a womanising alcoholic (James Taylor Junior) who was found in bed with another mans wife
      - Have to agree with many other hundreds of extra biblical rules that have no place in the Christian faith

      You see Anon 28th Jan 23:32, no sane person and no Christian person could ever agree to PBCC membership, so your comment is just childish nonsense

      “No expensive holidays” – for you to become a member you have to agree to only go on holiday where there is a PBCC meeting, which is hugely restricting

      “Tacky big Weddings” – that comment just shows your ignorance, many couples these days can’t afford big weddings. However, at least they have the freedom to invite friends and family to such a happy occasion as a wedding. PBCC members cant invite friends and family who are not members of the PBCC

      “Expensive divorces” – excuse me but there have been a few of those inside the PBCC. If one spouse wants to leave the group, they have to separate unless the spouse can be brainwashed to remain a member, this ultimately ends in divorce if the other partner doesn’t leave too.

      “Christmas gifts” – that comment also shows your ignorance. What is wrong with Christmas gifts ?. Giving of gifts at Christmas (time of celebration of the birth of Christ) is identified in the Bible, the wise men brought gifts to the baby Jesus !

      “Credit Cards” – the PBCC have plenty of financial schemes, including vouchers used to pay for goods, so don’t play the hypocrite

      You see Anon 28th Jan 23:32, no sane person and no Christian person could ever agree to PBCC membership, unless of course they have been deceived and brainwashed, so your comment is just childish nonsense

      As regards Tax, the whole sham to obtain Charitable status by deception is a Tax avoidance tactic


    2. 'Why are you posting this on here Lawrie?' Patmos asks.

      At least have the decency to spell his name correctly!

      Brew Sales.

    3. Telly Felly

      As you are clearly a charlatan and full of humbug. I see no obstacle to you joining the PBCC. So, go for it! Just make sure you are well stocked up with liquor for your first "Lord's Day" entertaining. Ahhh! Smell the whisky!

    4. Wrong again John
      The PBCC have a squeaky clean reputation when it comes to paying tax.
      If you are going to be contentious turd about this fact, then go and raise your baseless and untruthful claim with the collector of taxes.

    5. 'If you are going to be contentious turd '........straight from the gutter of filth and degradation that is today's PBCC. Base, uneducated and seemingly incapable of making a decision of their own. Like infants, they do as BDH says, even though he's drawing all the Glory away from God.

    6. Anon 29th Jan 21:59

      What part of what I have written is wrong ?

      It is a fact that Plymouth Brethren Christian Church used “dishonesty, deceit, half truths, obfuscation, misinformation and pr spin nonsense tactics… since 2012 in their campaign against the UK Charity Commission”

      Just read Garth Christies evidence statements to the UK parliamentary public accounts committee. Just read the Charity Commission report of Jan 2014. Just read the current PBCC website, which went live in Nov 2012 after the old site called exclusivebrethren.com was removed. Just read the evidence submissions to the UK parliament. Just read the press releases from the PBCC. Just read the glossy brochures produced by the PBCC since 2012. Just read Peter Trevvett’s letter to the European Security Commission etc etc

      All of this evidence and many more items, illustrate the PBCC EB used “dishonesty, deceit, half truths, obfuscation, misinformation and pr spin nonsense tactics… since 2012 in their campaign against the UK Charity Commission”

      Therefore, the whole drive to obtain Charitable status was a sham and deception. The reason being is that you the PBCC were desperate to have Charitable status even to the point of you losing all credibility, integrity and Christian morals, because you knew you could save a fortune on your Tax bills.

      The whole thing is a Tax avoidance tactic

      As for the rest of what I wrote, what part of that is wrong ?

      It is indeed a fact that to join the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church would require all of the conditions listed (and more) to be met. None of which are Biblical or Christian.

      Or are you going to lie and deny that too ?


    7. John
      Do we detect your statement - "Extra biblical rules" is really an avoidance of God's current word? As was in the days of yore, there were those who uttered - "The word is too hard, who can hear it"

      See - They weren't prepared to be adjusted. The same was true of many at Aberdeen. They heard the word from God's man, his beloved servant, but became grieved and contentious. They failed to get the gain of his plea to accept that the Lord had moved on. Do you accept you may have got it wrong John? Just pause for a moment and think it through. See grace still pleads your return, but it means, refusing the evil first in the world and choosing the good. Washing our robes is something even more. The Lord is preparing a place for those that love him.

      Go way back to the time of Moses, he wanted to lead his people out of Egypt (The world) , but the children of Israel hankered after it and were reluctant. See Moses was not a man to question. He had been taken-up by divine right and instructed by God to move. Now will you obey him?

      See John - I really think it's better be honest with God and not live in a state of denial. The Lord moves on and he thus turns corners, as was the case in 1959 and 1970. It was a test for all of us.

      So dear friend, Christianity is not static or fixed to the way you or I like.
      Rather the Lord says "Come follow me" Are you then going to follow him and his current word today? Having heard the word, we are all the more responsible and God holds us to it. We having the light and such favour, makes us the most responsible people on the face on the Earth.
      If we refuse to heed his word to move, it means we are going away back or turning back to the world and going into spiritual poverty and moral death. You can accuse as much as you want, but the PBCC are going through. It's clear to even those of us who find it difficult to grasp, they are special, they are favoured and they are blessed. We who love his current word also await the Lord Jesus coming on clouds of glory.
      Will you yield to the word or are you going to continue in sin?
      Grace doesn't run out, but time does. Turn to him and surrender that sad and selfish self will, which is robbing you of peace and joy with the Lord.

      See Paul said - What must I do Lord? That's a good start. He never looked back and hankered after the things of the world. Demas having loved the present age (the world) left Paul. We don't know his end, but it would seem likely he loved the world and gave up Christ.
      We cannot serve two masters. It's one or the other.

      The world or Christ? That means nothing in our homes that characterises the world or hankering after it. Give it up. Simple really!

      Give up something for Christ today and come into the blessing he has in mind for us. The world will leave you poor, thirsty and in want.
      I speak from real experience.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    8. So LJO, are you in the PBCC, or not? See, see, see, you even use the same limited vocabulary of your esteemed leader.

      Is Raymond Storrey out of prison yet?

    9. LJO at 3rd Feb 16:44

      You’ve really been indoctrinated by PBCC Exclusive Brethren false teaching. You persist in peddling the same robotic answers, clichés, platitudes, excuses for immoral behaviour and desperate attempts to justify false unbiblical teaching despite all of these having been exposed (with evidence) time and time again on these blogs.

      All Christians like myself, and others, can do is repeat what has been said before and repudiate and expose your nonsense

      LJO & the Lord Moving On ! -
      “Do we detect your statement - "Extra biblical rules" is really an avoidance of God's current word? As was in the days of yore, there were those who uttered - "The word is too hard, who can hear it"” ---- “They failed to get the gain of his plea to accept that the Lord had moved on.” ----- “The Lord moves on and he thus turns corners”-----“So dear friend, Christianity is not static or fixed to the way you or I like.Rather the Lord says "Come follow me" Are you then going to follow him and his current word today?”

      The Bible & the Lord Moving On -
      Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”
      Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed”
      Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty”
      James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change”
      Revelation 1:6 “And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen”
      Psalm 90:2 “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God”
      Matthew 4:4 “But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God”
      1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

      Mr LJO, the written Word of God (The Bible) shows that God does not change, so to claim otherwise just shows you are nothing but a charlatan peddling false teaching.

      As Gods Word in the Bible does not change, the rules, standards, laws, morality, Christian teaching, historical events, etc, contained in Gods written Word (The Bible) does not change either, because God can not deny himself.

      Mr LJO, therefore to attempt to justify unbiblical rules, extra biblical edicts and immorality (James Taylor Junior Aberdeen 70), by trying to claim the “Lord has moved on” is complete balderdash. It is also blasphemy and heresy because you are trying to attach the Lords name to some of the most unchristian and immoral actions, rules and behaviours.


    10. John - Got to admit you are so very very wrong.
      God the Unchangeable requires US to change. Are you ready to change your stance and vindictive attitude? About time you did.
      Since when does God stand still and do nothing?
      Times change, God moves accordingly.
      It appears indeed, you are crying foul because just maybe
      it means a change of course and a fresh conversion.
      Christianity is not static and the word of God is living and
      therefore is current today. In times past there were men like Paul and Moses who were raised-up to lead. God indeed moved and Moses led God's people out of the conditions and dangers of those times.
      Paul was prepared to be led by the hand. He was broken on the
      Damascus road by a great light. He was forced to confront his vindictive spirit against the saints and do a complete U turn.
      Are you prepared to change course John? Are you prepared to submit to Christ and be set free? Or are you still prepared to be an actively hostile
      accuser of those who are simply following Christ as he moves
      in our day to save us from this present evil world?

      You can't claim Christ if you attack those he loves, has
      redeemed and sanctified by his precious blood.

    11. Anon 3rd Feb 22:17 - Your webs of confusion are tying you up in knots

      You say -
      “God the Unchangeable requires US to change”
      Then you say –
      “Times change, God moves accordingly”

      However, it is indeed correct to say God the unchangeable requires us to change. That is right and biblical. He requires that we change to fit and suit Him and His rules, His standards, His laws, His Christian teaching, as detailed in His Word, The Bible

      We do not invent whimsical rules and doctrines which conflict and contradict His Word which is the Bible, then try and pass them off as ‘God has moved’ that is nonsensical false teaching and the height of heresy and blasphemy.

      God can not deny himself or contradict himself. Yet you are trying to say God has added to His Word the Bible, rules and doctrines which contradict His written Word which is the Bible, such a suggestion is false teaching and the height of heresy and blasphemy

      As a start, for example, can you give biblical references with correct biblical application and meaning for the extra biblical rules detailed in my post above of 29 January 2015 at 11:04 ?


    12. LJO

      You've clearly outed yourself as a member of the PBCC. How in Christian conscience can you now defend all the lies and misinformation you've previously told us about not being a member?

      (By the way. I do feel sad for you that you have believed all their non-Biblical stuff as though it was the genuine Word of God)

    13. The link with Demas is most attractive, especially as he hasn't come into it for some time; although the confusion over who is moving, current or stationary is giving rise to motion sickness. Would the man in John 4 come into this, do we think?

      What a travesty that some of those who heard the distinctive, but rather slurred ministry, regarding bums and more bums, at Aberdeen rejected this current word, not to mention the spirit in which it was launched. Even when the concubine was found massaging the beloved toes these contentious, temperate, prohibitionists would have none of it and turned their backs on what was current in our time.

      See, see, it's quite simple, there is a clear link between all this and alcoholism, family wrecking, abuse of young people, draconian actions against innocent people, suicide, tax avoidance, drunk driving and manslaughter. See, just go over it again and again and you will come to realise that to depart from all this is to reject the current word and a failure to be stationary whilst there was movement, or vice versa.

      Now look here, my friends, the Johnnie Red may be half full or half empty. It's how you view it see, see, if it is a contentious spirit it is clearly the latter.
      Now look here, see, we don't know for sure, but Demas more than likely had a sticky end because he loved the present age, see.

      So throw out anything in your homes that reminds you of the world....all those empty bottles, for example. Give up all those mobile phones computers and tablets on which the young are secretly accessing films music and goodness knows what else. If you are listening to Gardener;'s Question Time on R4 under the duvet, you know what beckons....... Give up all that extra unnecessary wealth and piles of cash, all that excessive food; quite simple really, and whilst you are at it, make sure there aren't any tacky magazines under the mattress.

      See, when you grasp the essentials how straight is the path (except on Sunday evenings when it seems to wind around the garden a bit).

      Not a PBCC member

    14. Anon 4 February 2015 19:26

      Thank you for your post you have just demonstrated very clearly the ridiculousness of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church Exclusive Brethren. Above all, you have just demonstrated how far departed they are from the Christian faith as taught by the Word of God which is the Bible.

      They rank alongside the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a sectarian cult although in some ways the PBCC EB are worse


    15. As much as I don't see eye to eye with the PBCC or follow LJO to the letter, I feel compelled to defend them from the likes of John who is clearly avoiding what was raised. The truth challenges the inward parts and he didn't like it.

      God is Unchangeable, yet his word IS current and living. It therefore is not static and requires submission to his will today. As LJO said, it means "adjustment" and a fresh conversion to be in the gain of current salvation. There is a bitterness welling-up with some here who are not prepared to move and are STILL stuck at Aberdeen. They can't move on because they have not got the gain of those meetings 45 years ago.
      A deadness and darkness has come into their souls and God may have fixed their hearts. Still there is grace which extends to each of us so that we should not perish.

      John, it might help if you ask the Lord to show you instead of closing your eyes and ears to the truth. It costs something to be faithful and I think you should appreciate this instead of justifying yourself.


    16. Dear Dot

      You say you don't see eye to eye with the PBCC, so we might therefore assume you are not a member, or else your position is untenable. Yet you refer to Aberdeen and the "gain of those meetings". Now I think that would be a very strange remark from a non member of the PBCC. However, having said it, could you tell us what was the actual "gain" of that unseemly, drunken, unchristian, blasphemous, acutely embarrassing shambles?

    17. Dot
      You make me laugh, do you really think we and readers of these blogs are stupid !

      You start your silliness by claiming you “dont see eye to eye with the PBCC”, then the rest of your comments are pure PBCC self justification with all the usual clichés and false teaching and indoctrinated unchristian unbiblical nonsense,

      You and others are so steeped in PBCC EB immoral sectarian unchristian rubbish that no matter how hard you try to hide your membership it screams out loud and clear from every word you write

      The more you and other members of the PBCC EB continue to comment on these blogs the more you expose how unchristian, immoral and ridiculous the PBCC is

      I will highlight this gem of immoral nonsense from you -

      “There is a bitterness welling-up with some here who are not prepared to move and are STILL stuck at Aberdeen. They can't move on because they have not got the gain of those meetings 45 years ago”

      We got the gain of those meetings perfectly thank you, they were very helpful and instructive and showed how PBCC or Exclusive Brethren as it was then, were moving in agreement with –

      - Alcoholism in leaders - contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader drinking whisky at a so called Christian service and being inebriated with slurred words on stage – contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader at a so called Christian service using foul, base and course language – contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader at a so called Christian service abusing members of the congregation – contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader at a so called Christian service toying, mocking and disrespecting the Word of God which is the Bible - contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader being found in bed with another mans wife – immorality which is contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      - So called Christian leader stroking sisters hair and making them sit on his knee as he fondled them – immorality which is contradicting the Bible & unchristian

      O yes, we got the gain of those meetings all right. I pray that you do too.

      Do you believe that God can introduce rules, doctrines, behaviours and actions which contradict and oppose His own written Word which is the Bible ! ?


    18. So Hell in a hand cart for all these - 1970 still cant get over it lot?
      Ahhhh we would just love to make you see things differently.

      Why do ye always resist the Holy spirit?

    19. Ahhh....Well, maybe you should set out what is good about wrecked families, alcoholism, drunken driving, fixation with business and materialism, hypocrisy, tax avoidance, dubious school financing, mental breakdown, suicides, abuse of the young, suppression of women, lies and deception tc etc. Hell in a handcart for all those responsible and who endorse this regime.

      Talking of the spirit, it might have just gone slightly better for the EB if JT Jnr. Hadn't taken so much on board and led his largely teetotal flock to join in.

      Looking forward to your explanation and justification for your dodgy position.

  4. Anonymous 28 January 2015 at 23:32

    You describe a lot of things which come down to CHOICE. It's your choice to have an expensive, or indeed a cheap holiday etc. I know in the PBCC they have little choice, but if indeed you are out of fellowship exercise your God-given inheritance of choice.

    Now whether the PBCC do contribute to the community, or just make a big show of a rather paltry contribution is moot.

    Do they pay more tax than they ought? I don't think so. As some companies donate much of their profits to The Grace Trust they obviate payment of Corporation Tax. This is of course legal, but is also very inward looking and could be seen by some as tax avoidance.

  5. Patmos

    Do you see a link here with the reluctance by the PBCC to expose criminal behaviour to the authorities?

    Also wondering if you could explain why the PBCC appear to suffer a proportionally high level of tragic accidents, sometimes because of lack of correct safety measures. Would this link with the notion of care, do you feel?

  6. Dear Telly Felly

    Thanks very much; the dozen cases of Johnnie Walker will be sent by courier; it's no problem, we bulk buy through Unidrunks and put it on expenses.

    Bottoms up! (no pun intended).

    PBCC (Marketing) Ltd.

  7. I have been told by reliable sources that in the minutes of a meeting of the UK Brethren’s Regional Coordinators Meeting on 5th December 2012 to discuss how to hold on to Charitable Status it was said that “Close to Illegal things are happening with congregation money.” In the past, some ex-Brethren have confessed to taking part in illegal money-trafficking across national boundaries, but in the context of 2012, is seems more likely that their concern was about tax-avoidance methods.

    Those Brethren whose consciences are troubled by this might find it helpful to read the Charity Commission’s recent Policy Document at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charity-tax-reliefs-guidance-on-charity-commission-policy/charity-tax-reliefs-guidance-on-charity-commission-policy

    1. Ian - Ha ha ha ha ha ...
      Your mad comments have made us all chuckle
      Since when have you had a "Reliable source"? Never springs to mind.
      It is well known that the PBCC companies not only pay taxes by the due
      date, but sometimes pay more than needed and get refunds.
      Furthermore, no money has ever been "trafficked". It's rather like saying Whoah after the horse has long bolted.

      Perhaps a case of -
      Now l'm out of felly, let's find something to cry foul over.

      Out of felly and no telly
      in partnership with Sir Patmos

    2. Anonymous of 29 January 2015 at 22:43,

      If you don’t believe me, ask one of your regional coordinators to show you the minutes of the meeting of 5th December 2012. Apart from the statement that “Close to Illegal things are happening with congregation money,” you will also find some other interesting things in it, like for instance a certain Jill Mytton (possibly not the one that we all know and love) being referred to as “that old granny” and B. D. Hales being referred to as the CEO, and the CEO advising the team when dealing with William Shawcross to “go for the jugular.” It all paints a picture of the prevailing ethos and sense of values among Brethren leaders.

      Some of what you say is about things you could not possibly know. You cannot possibly know about all of my sources, and you cannot possibly know that no congregation money has ever been illegally trafficked. By contrast, the people who were asked to do it ARE in a position to know that it was done, and have publicly admitted to doing it or witnessing it.

      When you say things you cannot know to be true, and strongly assert your opinions and your guesswork as if they were established fact, you seriously damage your own credibility, and when a lot of Brethren supporters do the same, they cast a dark shadow of incredibility over their community. It is unfair of you to do that, because I know that some of the Brethren do not deserve the reflected slur; I know that some of them are scrupulously truthful.

    3. Telly Felly

      Trafficking of money is well documented. For example, transfers to the US for right wing political advancement is a matter of public record, here and in the USA. How ever much you bluster, you cannot avoid the truth.

    4. Can someone point me to the chapter and verse of BDH's 'Christian Ministry' where he states in a PBCC place of public worship that if you have a good enough accountant you won't pay any tax? Or words very much to that effect.

      Thanks in anticipation.

    5. In answer to the above, a member of wiki calling himself 'Flags' testifies that 'I heard him say in a business seminar and got it verified by someone else later who was there: "If you have a good enough accountant, you won't need to pay ANY tax".

      It hit me so hard, that I wanted to verify it with the printed version, but that comment had been removed.'


      So possibly it has never been stated in a church hall?

  8. "Ahh - I would so love to be a member of the PBCC. No expensive holidays, Tacky big Weddings, Expensive divorces, Christmas gifts or Credit cards." Ahh yes, so would I. As a male I would be given a job, a Brethren mortgage, and possibly a free house if I threatened to leave. And then a juicy 16 year old virgin to marry and plenty of sex (at my demand and discretion) in order to produce multiple offspring to uphold the position. Someone to cook, clean and wash for not just my own family but those of my cronies also. Then I can pontificate in meetings, pass judgment or timid or poorer folk, fight for a higher position in the hierarchy and if I get there, become entitled to have other men's wives naked under a sheet. Oh and as much alcohol as I want without reproof, even if I carelessly kill innocent road users when I drive under the influence. Ahh yes, I would so love to be a member of the PBCC. Not.

  9. So why don't you join the PBCC, Mr out of felly and no telly?

  10. Management of money is a big responsibility for organisations with charitable status. Perhaps for the PBCC it's more difficult because of their emphasis on personal wealth. (When I was studying Abraham recently I found that Bruce D Hales had commented at a meeting that Abraham was "liquid". I'd not heard that word applied to the patriarch before.)

    In England, two of the most prominent nineteenth century Exclusive Brethren leaders were independently wealthy - J N Darby and G V Wigram. I've just been looking in detail at some of their unpublished mid-century correspondence, where they sometimes discuss money in the context of pamphlets to be published and gifts to be made. In May 1856, when he was abroad, J N Darby sent two separate sums of money to a former friend whom he had badly wronged (both sums were returned to him). He seemed to think that money would somehow cover his disgrace. ('A Statement of Facts [in reference to certain charges brought by a Mr. D. against some members of the family of a Mr. G.] page 15, 1857, in the British Library.) On this occasion J N Darby, who was a man renowned for his asceticism, seems to have hoped he could buy himself out of trouble. That's a pitfall to be avoided.

    1. Very interesting reading Joan. (I found it here--http://www.brethrenarchive.org/archive/)

      It seems strange to me that this item was not used more vigorously by his enemies for character assassination though. Is the "Mr D" known to have been JN Darby? Who was the Mr G, or is this an unknown?

      1 2 Mini

    2. The pamphlet does not name Mr Darby, but there are other identifying facts that leave little room for doubt that Mr D was indeed J. N. Darby. We know from his letters that JND stayed in the city of Bath in the autumn and part of the winter of 1855, and that he went to France soon after, just as Mr D did. We also know that JND had rooms in Howley Place, London, just as Mr D did. We also know that Mr D had a close friend known as G.V.W. just as Mr D did. There is also the style and content of Mr D’s speech and writing, which is similar to that of JND.

      But I still don’t know who Mr G was.

    3. J N Darby was living at 6 Paragon Buildings, Bath, in the last months of 1855.

    4. That is interesting. If that is the home of Mr G, we should be able to find his name.

    5. On page 4 of the pamphlet referred to by Joan, it is said “After this Mr. D. left the house [Mr G’s house] and took lodgings elsewhere.” Perhaps the “lodgings elsewhere” were in 6 Paragon Buildings. According to the Post Office Directory of Gloucestershire with Bath and Bristol, published in 1856, 6 Paragon Buildings in the City of Bath was a lodging house whose proprietors were the Misses Eyeres. So that does not help us to identify Mr G.

    6. The children's names and ages or the minutes of the meeting may enable the discovery of G. Or if GVW letters are available, they may contain the name. I thought that political maneuvering of the sort described was a relatively recent development and would be more than a little disappointed to find it went that far back. I wonder too, who wrote the article itself.

      1 2 Mini

    7. In 1856 there was a Plymouth Brethren Chapel in Bath at 28 Monmouth Street. Samuel P Tregelles said the meeting had been there in 1835, when the Brethren took over the former Moravian chapel which had been built in 1765. The 1851 census records that there were 30 morning worshippers at the Plymouth Brethren Chapel in Bath and twelve in the evening.

      Sources: Samuel P Tregelles ‘Three Letters to the author of “A Retrospect of events that have taken place amongst the Brethren”’. London: 1849, 2nd edn. 1894, Letter 1 fn 138

      Post Office Directory of Gloucestershire with Bath and Bristol 1856 pages 2 & 32

      ‘From Awakening to Secession’ by Timothy C F Stunt, published 2000 by T&T Clark Ltd, page 9 fn. 26

    8. Thank you very much, Anon of 1 February 2015 at 09:36, we could have a proper little historical research society going here. The location of the meeting room narrows down the search for Mr G’s house, because we know from the pamphlet that it was within walking distance. All we need now is a palaeographer who can decipher JND’s dreadful handwriting (and then someone else to decipher the meaning). There are a lot of his unpublished letters in the John Rylands Library.

  11. By all accounts, Mr Bruce is very liquid.

  12. Patmos and Telly Felly - a very unholy alliance.

    1. and oh so Berry Phoney, even while in exile.

    2. Out of felly and no telly is right and so is Sir Patmos.
      Ian dear, you really crack me up with that opening phrase -
      "I have been told by reliable sources" Where exactly do you go to
      find this kind of sad stuff? The Media or from a tacky and worldly celeb magazine?

      I really think you and Joan make a fine pair and should meet up for lunch.


    3. I can assure you, Ozzy, that the source of this information was someone that even you would regard as reliable. What I have said about the meeting of 5 December 2012 can easily be verified by anyone who was present. Try Andy Turner of Chippenham or Alan Gibson, or any of the Regional Coordinators. Or if, as your pseudonym suggests, you live in Australia, try Alan Gadsden. Are they reliable enough for you?

      I welcome your suggestion that I should meet Joan for lunch. You would be welcome to join us, if you happen to be in the UK.

    4. Currently on business overseas Ian, but l thank you for the kind gesture.
      Also tend to keep separate from negative talk about the PBCC.
      I prefer to use my time productively and serve the Lord.

      Ozzy - Formerly PBCC
      and still a supporter

    5. Ozzy, 19:05

      You say you “prefer to use my time productively and serve the Lord” then say you are a “Formerly PBCC and still a supporter”

      Your backing the wrong horse my friend

      This old ruse has been used time and again and blown apart time and again, as a lie

      The Pbcc eb separate from all other Christians and Church’s declaring them to be iniquitous, evil, not in the assembly, not got the light, not got the spirit of god, and many other sectarian labels

      The pbcc eb refuse fellowship, worship, and communion with any other Christian from any other church, declaring any Lords Table outside the pbcc eb to be a ‘Table of Devils’ and ‘Rival Tables’

      The pbcc eb refuse to eat or drink with other Christians, declaring them unfit to eat or drink with, contaminated, worldlies

      The pbcc eb withdraw fellowship and cut off persons who leave the group, declaring them as having left Christianity, having turned away from the light, left the fellowship, left the assembly, and many other sectarian labels

      The pbcc eb divide families up if a person leaves

      So Ozzy,

      None of the above is Christian, nor is it found in the Bible, the Bible teaches the opposite of what pbcc eb practice.

      Please then explain how you are “serving the Lord” by “supporting the pbcc” when the pbcc eb practice doctrines such as those listed which directly oppose and contradict what the Lord teaches in the bible ?

      If your supporting the pbbc eb then you must be opposed to what the Lord teaches in the Bible ?

  13. I do so hope that Ozzy left the PBCC with all his family, otherwise one might assume he is not having lunch with them, either.

  14. A letter has been read out in some (all?) UK localities in past days, apparently chastising the EB/PBCC flock for the way they have been administering/financing their schools. I gather the letter comes from the top brass, though copies of it are strictly guarded... so the information in this post is on a 'to the best of my knowledge' basis.

    I gather the main driver behind the letter is that HMRC have begun some level of investigation into EB/PBCC charities and schools-funding, and/or fee payments thereof by Brethren.

    However it appears BDH is doing his utmost to muddy the waters of his own dodgy leadership, by telling the saints that they have transgressed in not following JSH's ideology about school set-ups, right from the off. Apparently they should have pushed much harder in the UK for government funding for the schools for the past up to 20 years they've been running, rather than going so heavily down the private/independent route. (The fact that Focus Schools haven't had a hope in hell of attaining Free School status appears to be neither here nor there, in the back-pedalling Halesian hindsight calculations of what went wrong.)

    From what I gather, UK school trustees and local congregations are mystified as to where they have not complied fully in the past with instructions as handed down by the hierarchy. I talked with someone today who'd had the letter read to her, and she was baffled as to where they'd erred, saying they had all tried so hard to follow the spirit of what JSH had described as his vision for EB schools, right back as far as the mid-90s. They seem to have no idea what they are supposed to do to fix the problem of how to more legally and ethically fund their schools.

    There just seems to be much bewilderment and the beginnings of a kind of illogical contrition amongst the flock, a bit like a frightened child who knows they have to be sorry but doesn't quite know for what or how to fix the situation without incurring further wrath. BDH of course is taking no responsibility whatsoever I gather, for any of his or his father's faulty leadership decisions (or in the best-case scenario, failure to ensure the troops were properly informed).

    All special meetings, fellowship meeting plans etc are now off limits in the UK for the foreseeable - this appears to be one of BDH's tactics when a locality or nation (or entire lower ranks of the EB/PBCC worldwide) has erred in his eyes. "Being disloyal to Our Brother" is a currently favoured catch-all term I gather. Oddly, BDH hasn't yet worked out that there is a certain sense of relief among some of the congregation, when they don't have to pretend to be all enthusiastic about going to special meetings! His 'punishment' and 'withdrawal of privileges' technique seems to work in the opposite direction intended, for some of the saints lol.

    Ethically sound charitable PBCC trusts are probably the one thing that BDH most fears having to implement, as they will get him in the PBCC pocket. I am not sure how much more some of the lower socio-economic families in the EB can afford to give though, for their children's education... What a Halesian mess.

    1. If the various reports we have received on this subject are accurate, this has the potential to be the biggest EB crisis since 1970. The UK Brethren must be tired of being told what to do, and then blamed when it turns out to be a mistake. They will not be pleased to be landed with the blame, and possibly the tax bill too. The cost of running their schools is already a heavy burden, and if they lose their tax advantages they are bound to wonder if it is all worth it. In fact, quite a few of them are wondering if the whole HEB system is all worth it. Is another split overdue?

      The ban on travelling around to fellowship meetings and 3-day meetings is a curious reaction. It is a bit reminiscent of what is known in the Prison Service as “lock-down”, a precaution that is taken when there is a risk of sedition or riots. Is the ban perhaps aimed at preventing disaffected conspirators from meeting and planning a rebellion?

      Brethren schisms occur when members are dissatisfied with one of their leaders. Usually the reasons for a split are dressed up as matters of principle, but the feeling of dissatisfaction is usually the real trigger and the matters of principle are articulated later. If there is a sufficiently widespread dissatisfaction with BDH’s grand scheme, there will be no difficulty in finding plenty of moral and doctrinal reasons to ditch him. Maybe some financial reasons too.

      I view such a prospect with some unease. It would not be nice. More families would be torn apart and many confused individuals would experience severe emotional trauma. Counselling psychologists and other healthcare professionals would struggle to cope with the fallout.

      But if this oppressive, irrational, unchristian confederation falls apart, it will be much better for future generations, and better for some of the new escapees too, once they recover from the after-effects. After a few years their main regret will be that it took so long to happen.

  15. As I understand it, government funding was obtained in Australia by Halesian lies and duplicity; the falsification of the credentials of an EB(PBCC) negotiator, for example.

    Unfortunately the UK hasn't been such a walk over for the, now, PBCC. In any case, government funding, on the present scale, has only been available in recent times, private schools having to rely on tax breaks and fees for revenue. Not that a corrupt businessman and manipulator would know about such matters.

  16. Laurie

    I think the last two posts from Trevor at 22:39 and from Anon at 08:06 should be put into a new blog discussing the latest issue in the PBCC

    1. I wonder if Christie @ Co are regretting not settling with some us now? Not so funny now is it when we alert the authorities? It's going to cost them a whole lot more than I asked for.