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Saturday, 10 January 2015

Gordon Pollard would turn in his grave...


At 10.35 for a classic Hales Exclusive Brethren 'corner turn'.






68 comments:

  1. Um what has happened to 666 then? I had quite a discussion about barcodes and 666 with my brother who is a member of the EB. Are they now using them then?

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  2. If the Brethren now recognise that their refusal to use barcodes was based on nothing more than irrational superstition, it may make some of them wonder how many more of their rules are based on nothing more than irrational superstition. I think the answer will be “quite a lot.”

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    1. I wonder Ian - you have more confidence in that than I do! I hope the answer will be that they will have such thoughts but I doubt it. Maybe one of the EB people who comment on here can explain why once bar codes were linked to the number 666 and therefore the devil but are not any more!

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    2. Yes Jill, perhaps I am being too optimistic. Even if Brethren consciously recognise that there is something irrational about barcodes being forbidden and evil at one time and encouraged another time, they may not feel there is much wrong with being irrational. Feelings, desires and emotions probably play a greater part in their decision making than conscious rational thought. The same is probably true to some extent with all of us.

      However, rational thought has often played an important part in people’s emancipation at a late stage, after they have begun to feel that Brethrenism is unattractive, immoral, harmful or oppressive.

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    3. One way that the EB may explain it could be by suggesting that worldy barcodes are linked to 666 and the Devil, but UBT barcodes are not. Remember the EB computer logic? A few years ago just touching (literally) a keyboard was so defiling that it was a disciplinable offence. Now they have 'sanctified' computors from Hales on high. Think money, think control; it then starts to make more sense.

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    4. Jill,

      I think it is possible that many members will take the view that much of what is taught within the EB is irrational and silly. I did. But it was not enough to make me speak up, walk out, or do anything else about it. I stayed in and kept quiet because I had a job, a home, a family, and many friends. To speak up would have been just too costly for me. In the end, they expelled me - so I lost it all anyway. I got my freedom though.

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  3. The world of IT, barcodes and all leads to the Man of Sin cos Gordon Pollard said so! Even when we were still in the EB we refused to accept him as a 'priest' as we had already proved his dishonesty. A very nasty piece of work he was, driven by his wife and revenge. Gobsmacked to hear that he then went on to take 3 Day Meetings. Shows how much emphasis the PBCC put on honesty......NONE.

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  4. Here is something very irrational. When viewing this article I found that I scrolled down quickly past the image of GP as I found it mildly disturbing. I have never met the man, but I was aware of a level of distaste at having his picture on my screen. What was it that made me scroll fast? Jill?

    I have since scrolled back up and had a long hard look at him, just so that I can convince myself that I am over it and can deal with it.

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    1. I cringe when I see the picture and I cringed even more when I listened to their well moderated, robotic tones try to explain how right their cult is. I loathe their hair pin turns and what they stand for.

      Definition of a hypocrite:

      1) a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
      2) a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

      Anyone think the shoe doesn't fit?

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    2. Hello Anonymous or 09:53 - images and smells are powerful triggers for memories. You clearly have memories that are still 'hot' for you as evidenced by your wish to avoid GCs picture - I suspect many of us had a similar reaction. His face reminds you of all that is bad about the EB and all the painful memories you have. I am glad you scrolled back up and had a good look at him - that is the best way, facing our fear is the first step to getting past it. If we ignore traumatic memories they can go on troubling us but if we feel the fear and face them anyway, we can be healed and be 'over it'. So well done!! (not meant patronisingly - I know exactly how this feels).

      For some reason the site won't let me log in using my google account so I will have to reply anonymously but actually it is me!
      Jill

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    3. That should of course have been GP's picture!! oops. After I wrote the above I remember going into a restaurant with my psychology tutor once - I screamed and ran out. No idea why until I went back to look through the door and saw the chairs - older ex EB will remember the wooden chairs with the book holders on the back of them. That was what triggered my emotional and behavioural reaction. My tutor made me go in again and stand and look at them. He was right!
      Jill

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  5. People may read this blog post and think ‘how petty & irrational of the Exclusive Brethren to have such a bizarre world view of barcodes etc’ and they would of course be correct.

    However, it was this rule (which now appears to have been overturned), and others like it, which has led to extremist irrational behaviour by the Exclusive Brethren

    I wonder if anyone remembers the case of the two sisters from Staffordshire, UK, (I think that was the place) who had a farm business selling eggs.

    They were told to sell up and lost the farm and business over a bonkers idea that somehow the red lion mark stamped on the eggs ( a sign of quality) and barcodes were a link to the “world” !

    These bonkers, irrational ideas, have nothing whatever to do with Christianity as taught in the Christian faith through the Holy Bible, yet, extremist sectarian brainwashed persons (Exclusive Brethren PBCC) have caused immense damage, pain and unnecessary suffering in the pursuit of enforcement of such crazy rules.

    John

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    1. I seem to remember them asking JT Jnr about the egg mark and being told it was the symbol of the antichrist. I believe it broke them emotionally and they both committed suicide. They would have been better by never asking in the first place and just carrying on. The problem was people would throw all sorts of similar questions to JT Jnr who would answer off the top of his head without any thought. He was so often drunk he couldn't think anyway.
      Phil

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    2. Never have I encountered such a superstitious bunch of people as when I was an EB (although I didn't even understand or see it was that, until about 20yrs after I'd left!) Their form of superstition takes a particularly cultish form it seems to me, wherein any piece of bullshit fed to them by leaders is believed and almost lusted after as just the most acceptable spiritual insight one could possibly have.

      Some of the EB superstitions have the most awful consequences to both members and non-members... mainly the ones that involve the irrational Brethren fear of contamination by The World.

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  6. A lot of it seems to come from ignorant and influential people. Ignorant in terms of social intelligence, emotional intelligence, academic intelligence and theological intelligence.

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  7. Pollard by name, pillock by nature.

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  8. A well-established method of controlling people, a method used by many cults, is to induce fear. Fear of the outside world; fear of dark supernatural forces; fear of contamination by evil; fear of persecution; fear of going to Hell; fear of God’s judgment on you or on your children.

    All the dark mutterings about computers and mobile phones and bar codes and radio waves and the Prince of the Power of the Air, and 666 were possibly just part of the process of spinning a superstitious web of fear and anxiety to make people feel more dependent on the illusory “salvation” to be found in the EB assembly.

    It was just their bad luck that they didn't foresee that computers and mobile phones and bar codes were going to be necessary for running almost any modern business. Now their leaders have to think up a reason for saying they are not evil any more.

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  9. To bring some balance: As IT emerged I think many genuine churches were temporarily wrong footed by it. I remember the concern in a non-EB environment about bar-codes and the space markers being longer fatter sixes - making 666 on every bar code. I remember debates about the value of TV. But as we were educated, able to research, able to discuss we did not get trapped by false doctrine. Autocracy is part of the problem here...

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    1. Hmm, I am moved to note, as an echo to the above post:

      As LGBT and female gender inclusion has emerged I think many churches (I shy away from describing churches as 'genuine', generally!) have been temporarily wrong-footed and totally thrown by these very scary ideas!

      Those former brief worries about the Mark of the Beast on purchased items pale into insignificance, when it comes to the thought of gay marriage or gender equality or female religious teachers, for some people. Sadly. We have such a long ways yet to go when it comes to loving our neighbour INCLUDING their difference...

      That said, I do struggle to feel genuine love for people who are mired in what I consider to be sexist or homophobic bigotry. So we've ALL got a ways yet to go re applying that commandment, lol.

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  10. Elsewhere in this blog I posted a piece showing that the biblical love of neighbour is inclusive - of your fellow believer, outsider neighbour, stranger and even your enemy. There are to be no exceptions: if you follow the Bible, everyone is to be loved "as yourself".

    Reading this thread, I'm poleaxed by accounts of Exclusive Brethren people's lives which have been dominated, and (most terribly) lost, because of fear. It's astonishing to me that Bruce D Hales hasn't taught his followers to love everyone, whether PBCC member or otherwise, in the biblical, inclusive way. If he were to proclaim this precious message there would be no fear among the Brethren. "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

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    1. The trouble is Joan, that they all fear each other. The ones at the top fear losing face over something trivial which would bring instant demotion and derision. The ones climbing the tree are so busy treading on everyone else and being sycophantic that they don't care who they hurt or dismiss on their way. The man at the bottom fears the inevitable knock on the door, when his fellow grasses him up to local priests. It's just ghastly. They do not trust each other, let alone love each other.

      When one gets withdrawn from, I saw no sadness, just this automaton blankness of expression and spirit.

      As for Gordon Pollard, he should have stuck to what he knew best. Climbing telegraph poles and fixing telephone lines. In his little yellow GPO van he was almost a likeable character, but the quick fortune he made from selling products he probably wouldn't have used himself corrupted him and he sought revenge against those who had shown him and Barbara charity in their early married years.

      His own parents left around 1970 and he relocated to where his wife originated from, where she continued to boss him round until we left.

      His treatment of my father was despicable. Framing him for something he claimed to have been told by a 'worldly'. No witness, no truth in it, just his bling ambition to make even more cash by converting his business into a limited company, which was at that time, strictly forbidden.

      I remember him confessing it in the meeting afterwards, but by then the deed had been done. To his dying day he never apologised for his actions which appear to have been supported by Bruce Hales himself, in his promotion to the higher ranks.

      His picture makes my flesh crawl too.

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    2. That culture of fear you describe to Joan in your 1st paragraph, is not that dissimilar to life in E.Germany under the Stasi, or in the USSR. Reading books about people living under those regimes, one finds an unnerving similarity to EB life... Lots of lovely (and not so lovely) friends all 'believing' the same thing, all the while everyone is watching each other like hawks to see who might not be toeing the party line, longing to speak one's truth but not having a clue if there is anyone among your social group whom you can trust. Grim. Deathly to the spirit and the mind.

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    3. In the London area of the UK yesterday a life sentence was handed down to a young murderer. This young man had established a virtual circle of friends who were interested in playing games online. After the court's verdict, the police described how he had groomed his 14 year old victim and subsequently murdered him. The police talked about how manipulative and controlling the criminal was - apparently if any young cyber friend disagreed with him or his judgement he expelled them forthwith from his circle.

      It was an appalling case. As I considered it, I couldn't help thinking of the fear that's induced when anyone requires complete obedience from another human, or refuses to allow questions and disagreements.

      The awful record of the two sisters and their egg production business, mentioned in this thread, stayed with me all yesterday, and after the court's verdict in the case I've described I began to recall how I was dismissed from friendship with a member of the Exclusive Brethren in the early 1960s, not because I'd questioned anything but simply because I wasn't a Brethren member. I've never been fearful about this, but I have been tearful, because I know how many people have been cruelly exiled from the Brethren circle and from their Brethren families when they've questioned something or disagreed with their leaders. I worry that anyone in an organisation which calls itself a mainstream church should live in fear of exclusion simply for disagreeing with a leader's judgement.

      I'd ask Bruce D Hales and Garth Christie to think about the extent to which the PBCC induces fear and seeks to manipulate and control its members. Disagreement among friends can be positive and life-enhancing.

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  11. Gordon is with the Lord and will rise at the rapture and swept into glory...

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    1. Anon 14th Jan 01:01

      Your comment raises a number of questions and points.

      - The Holy Bible, which is the Word of God teaches that ALL Christians who follow the Bible and believe in the shed blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins will be with Christ at his second appearing. I call it the “second coming” because the word “rapture” as you describe it, is not found in the Bible, there will be NO “secret rapture” which is what PBCC EB are taught, that idea is not in the Bible. When Christ’s second appearing happens it will not just be the PBCC EB Christians who are called to be with Christ, it will be ALL Christians from every denomination, every Church, every local assembly. Do you agree with this ?

      - We as humans in the flesh can not categorically declare that “Gordon is with the Lord and will rise at the rapture and swept into glory...”, for that is for God alone to decide, only God knows. Do you agree ?

      - Gordon was a person who clearly abused the Word of God (twisted scripture to his own end), and was clearly deceitful and deceptive. I am not being spiteful when I say that I am just observing his comments in the BBC Everyman TV program expose on the Exclusive Brethren PBCC which aired in 2002/3. It is up to God alone to judge such a person is fit for glory with Christ. Do you agree ?

      - Gordon was instrumental in enforcing some assembly meetings resulting in withdrawing from persons, which means, cutting them out of the group, from family / friends and away from sharing the Lords Table. Many of these persons were Christians who had done no biblical sin as described in the Bible, yet who were declared iniquitous and unfit for fellowship by Gordon and others simply because they wanted to leave to go to another Christian Church. These unchristian actions by Gordon and others are contrary to the Christian faith and contrary to the Word of God which is the Bible. It is up to God alone to judge such a person is fit for glory with Christ. Do you agree ?

      - Gordon was also a member of a religious group (PBCC Exclusive Brethren) that refused to allow fellowship, worship, or sit at the Lords Table with any other Christians from any other Christian Church nor to allow eating or drinking with any other Christians from any other Christian Church. All other Christians were taught as being inferior and unfit. Gordon P obeyed such rules and enforced them with others. These actions and rules are completely contrary to the Word of God which is the Bible and denigrate the very work of God in ALL other Christians !. It is up to God alone to judge such a person is fit for glory with Christ. Do you agree ?

      R

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    2. Proverbs 19:9English Standard Version (ESV) A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

      Gordon Pollard proved guilty of both and to my knowledge never repented of either even when given the opportunity. In the end we refused to continue to break bread with him and left. It's a great pity that others within the PBCC seem incapable of acting on their conscience.

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    3. Anon 1.01

      I wonder how you can be so sure of that ? According to the evidence, this man caused harm and was partly responsible for the spread of a lot of false teaching and superstition; this had repercussions with a lot of people.

      Much, much worse, former, discredited leader Taylor Jnr was the cause of enormous human misery. likewise Symington and, perhaps, to a lesser extent Hales Snr. Their so called "ministry" was enforced by guilty, local leaders and their side-kicks. Where are these leaders? Where are the former "priests"and enforcers?

      The man I see sweeping the streets has never had a position of power, control and, perhaps, hasn't hurt anyone; if he is an affirming Christian, don't you think he is likely to be the better candidate?

      If you support the position of the former people, are you secure? Is anyone who supports the activities of inhuman, superstitious, mercenary and power hungry men - those who would endorse them here, for example, are they secure?

      Fortunately, there may be time to reflect on this and act accordingly.

      Surely, only God knows and recognises his own.

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    4. R,

      I am not sure I understand some of your statements. Are you saying that the bible says nothing at all about the rapture, or are you just saying it says nothing of a "secret" rapture?

      1 2 Mini

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    5. I hope when he passes through the pearly gates, St Peter will tattoo a big 666 on his generous forehead and he can wander around for eternity like that, as a gentle reminder of his past.

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    6. 1 2 Mini

      If you read my comments again, you will see I have been very clear.

      Your Question 1
      “Are you saying that the bible says nothing at all about the rapture”

      Answer
      The word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible. Descriptions of Christ’s second coming and appearing are certainly described in the Bible of course, but the word “rapture” is not used. Using the word “rapture” to describe such an event does not make it clear what is being discussed, nor is it a Biblical description.

      Your Question 2
      “or are you just saying it says nothing of a "secret" rapture?”

      Answer
      In all the descriptions in the Bible of the second coming of Christ there is nothing that indicates something is “secret”. The doctrine of a “secret” second coming of Christ (ie something that happens quietly), is a man made invention and is not a Biblical thought at all. It is a false doctrine followed by PBCC Exclusive Brethren. The Bible is very clear on such matters, for example –

      1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God

      Revelation 1:7 “Behold, He [Jesus] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him”

      Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”

      1 2 Mini,

      I pray that helps answer your questions, is there anything else I wrote in my post of 13 January 2015 at 09:36 that you are unclear about ?

      R

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    7. 09:36
      No l don't agree.
      The coming of the rapture draws ever closer to those who are obedient and walk in the light. God rejects those who are lawless and wrest with scripture.
      Such will be left behind in a terrible world
      The Assemby will be gone and the devil will be on the loose.

      Mick Ching

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    8. MC

      Please read the post above at 14 Jan 09:48

      “The coming of the rapture…..”
      There is no such word used in the Bible. The Bible only speaks of the second coming or appearing of Christ. The word “rapture” is not used anywhere

      “..to those who are obedient and walk in the light”
      The second coming or appearing of Christ is looked for and welcomed by ALL bible believing & following Christians, from whatever church, local assembly, or denomination. An Exclusive Brethren tract from years ago said that “there will be no denominational differences in heaven”

      “The Assemby will be gone….”
      The assembly is just another way to describe the ‘bride of Christ’ or ‘the one body’ or the ‘church of Christ’. ALL Bible believing & following Christians are part of that. At the second appearing of Christ He comes for ALL Christians, He does not single out one particular church group or denomination. He comes for ALL Christians who have put their faith and trust in His shed blood.

      John 3:16 Darby Translation - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.

      In the verse above the “whosoever” is very important. In some translations, it is “whoever”. It is important because there are no limits. “whoever believes”. It does not say PBCC Exclusive Brethren only, it is “whosoever”

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    9. Mick Ching, would you care to comment on Gordon Pollard's TV appearance when he spoke of the world of IT and barcodes leading to the Man of Sin?

      What changed? BDH's lust for money?

      God rejects those that are lawless, I agree. Would that include members of the PBCC recently jailed for paedophilia and causing death by dangerous driving?

      Mark R Elliott

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    10. Dear Mr Ching

      I assume you are including the PBCC among those who are lawless and wrest with scripture

      I agree; in terms of the secular law, The PBCC have little respect for democracy and trial by jury. To that extent their core beliefs are without the law. Furthermore, there are instances of convictions for lawless behaviour and some behaviour remains undetected by the authorities.

      Regarding scriptural law, there have been plenty of examples on this blog, and elsewhere, demonstrating that the PBCC wrest with the scriptures (to their destruction) Look no further than this page for one such instance. More superstition than scriptural, don't you agree?

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    11. It's a typical PBCC tactic to engage, comment, then disappear. Dialogue seems to be beyond them. Christie/Hazell/Reiner via their lawyers offered me a meeting to discuss my claims of harm and detriment against the Brethren, but withdrew after asking me for ideas as how the meeting should progress. My suggestion was to corroborate the facts I had stated with my still PBCC sister.

      More slippery than eels, I continue to seek justice.

      Christians? I very much doubt it.

      Mark R Elliott.

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  12. Anonymous13 January 2015 at 01:01,

    I trust you are right in thinking Gordon is with the Lord. At the same time, I wonder how you know it to be so? I did not meet him, nor speak to him personally. Was he among those who believe " the word of faith, which we preach: that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among the dead, thou shalt be saved."...?
    Additionally, on what basis do you, assuming you do, suppose that you yourself will be caught up to meet the Lord and always be with with Him? -- It concerns me that the brethren are being told that the salvation of those who leave is called into question. Is this a statement of truth? I have family members who left, and they are firm believers in our Lord Jesus, and saved thereby. As far as I can tell from scripture, there is no warrant for thinking that eternal salvation is tied to being in fellowship. If Gordon had been out of fellowship when he died, would he still then rise and be swept into glory, or would he have been eternally lost in that case?
    If one were to ask these questions of his local brethren, would social and family life among the brethren continue?

    1.2. Mini

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  13. "Nothing impure will ever enter it (the New Jerusalem) nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" Revelation 21:27

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  14. A reminder: to date, the EB/PBCC is the only Christian Church (as claimed by themselves) which has been told by a regulatory authority that they need to show Christian compassion. The trustees of the various PBCc trusts have signed a deed of variation to that effect.

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  15. R,
    You have made your belief regarding my question sufficiently clear, thank you.
    There is nothing else in your post that jumps out at me although I might be tempted to ask a couple of things. Since you don't believe the rapture is mentioned in scripture, I don't understand why you comment that all believers will be called to be with Him . To me that is the rapture, but apparently it means something else to you which I don't get. -- Where have you derived that idea from, that all believers will be called to be with Him?

    I do believe the rapture will occur as I have been taught, but I do realize I am to "prove all things, hold fast the right"

    1 2 Mini

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    1. 1 2 Mini

      You say
      - “Since you don't believe the rapture is mentioned in scripture”

      Please can you tell me where scripture does mention the rapture ?

      When I read the Bible, the word rapture is not in it. The Bible only speaks of Christ’s second coming or appearing, it does not mention the word rapture. If you think that Christ’s second coming or appearing is “the rapture” then fine, my only point to you has been that the actual phrase or word “rapture” does not occur in Scripture. The bible only speaks of the second coming or appearing of Christ, it does not call it the rapture.

      You say
      - “I do believe the rapture will occur as I have been taught, but I do realize I am to "prove all things, hold fast the right"

      Please can you tell us who has taught you to call Christ’s second coming or appearing, the “Rapture” ?

      You say
      - “Since you don't believe the rapture is mentioned in scripture, I don't understand why you comment that all believers will be called to be with Him. To me that is the rapture, but apparently it means something else to you which I don't get”

      That is correct, the word rapture is not mentioned in scripture. The scriptures do however teach about Christ’s second coming or appearing and that is what I believe, because Christians believe the Word of God which is the Bible. I comment that all believers will be called to be with Him because that is what scripture teaches. You call it the rapture, I call it Christ’s second coming or appearing. I call it that because that is what scripture teaches. I don’t call it the rapture because that word is not in scripture.

      You say
      - “-- Where have you derived that idea from, that all believers will be called to be with Him?”

      Scriptures teaches that does it not ?

      R

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    2. R,

      1 Thessalonians 4:17 contains the rapture doctrine. I understand the Latin Vulgate contains a word which perhaps became the English word rapture. Whatever the case regarding the word itself, that seems to me of little importance. The doctrine commonly meant by the word is stated in the above mentioned verse.
      I believe in the "caught up" if you prefer. That is to say that I believe that whether I am dead or alive I am among those who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

      No one has taught me to call Christ's second coming the rapture that I can remember.

      Well yes, I do believe that scripture teaches that all believers will be called to be with Him. That is stated in other words in the verse I have cited. -- I was wondering specifically which verse or verses you would cite to support our common belief that all believers will be called to be with Him? I have not researched or thought about whether there are other verses to support this belief.--one is enough for me to "hold fast" that belief.

      I remain unclear as to your belief on this because if you don't believe in the caught up, it leaves me wondering where you suppose we will be called to be with him. This interests me because I have heard of this argument, but don't have a clear understanding of the beliefs of those who deny the caught up. My belief is that it is in the clouds and air. I don't pretend to know which galaxy, but I assume it is relatively close to the earth.

      1 2 Mini

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    3. 1 2 Mini - it may help to consider the apocalyptic context in which Christianity arose in C1 AD. Look at some of the inter testamental writings, consider the documents from the Dead Sea, think about John the Baptist ... and so on. Jesus, Paul and John, the author of the book of Revelation, were all nurtured in that tradition and lived under the threatening might of imperial Rome, so it's entirely credible that they thought that way.

      When looking at what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians it's worth investigating what people in 50-51 AD understood about cosmology. Paul was not as well informed about the universe as we are - he didn't have access to the wonderful Hubble telescope images or understand the configuration of the planets in the solar system. He was writing to comfort and encourage the new Christians in Macedonia and I'm sure they would have found his image a help.

      Christians believe that in some way God will be there at the wind up of creation but it's folly to dwell on dates and processes. What we know for sure is that our middle aged star, the sun, has now used up half its fuel and life on earth has about a further four and a half billion years to run.

      Myself, I'd not be keen to go to Mars, but I try to thank God for the earth, our solar system, the milky way galaxy and the amazing universe, and I believe God will always be just and merciful in his dealings with humankind.

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    4. ' I believe God will always be just and merciful in his dealings with humankind. '

      Yes. Unlike the recently renamed Plymouth Brethren Christian Church who seem to think it's OK to cause harm and detriment to people and not even discuss it, let alone consider an apology and/or compensation.

      About 5 weeks ago I asked Garth Christie several pertinent questions about the church he assumes some kind of responsibility for, not least an enquiry as to whether the PBCC take claims of child abuse seriously. Unlike any mainstream church, I haven't yet had the courtesy of a reply.

      His silence on such matters speaks louder than any denials he might make.

      I don't know Kevin Dormer, but could he have been the only honest, genuine EB individual on that BBC TV Everyman programme?

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    5. No, I would not class Kevin Dormer as particularly honest or genuine. Just my opinion.

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  16. Mick Ching - what are you on because I would like some of it. Are you a relative of Mr Ching in Kingston, UK, who was hoping for the leadership after Slymington but got beaten to the post by those evil Sydney businessmen?

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  17. Joan,

    Thank you for your comments. I don't know that I had heard the term inter testamental before, but a quick look on the web and I get the idea. Judging from your posts, I gather you to be somewhat older than myself and probably one who has or has had much more time to devote to reading many things. Being one with a full schedule, I don't know when I might further educate myself on just what the writings are or their contents. Perhaps you will shorten my learning curve further.

    Then too, I confess I don't understand your purpose or some of your comments. -- It is entirely credible that they thought what way? I don't understand your meaning. I had no idea that it was not credible for them to think in whatever way they thought.

    Cosmology and Paul. Again I don't follow your point. Yes he was writing to comfort the Saints who seem to have been confused in perhaps thinking that those who had died had missed out on an expected and significant blessing. For a few minutes I thought you must have made a typo in using the word image. Now I think I have figured out your meaning on that. I suppose you are meaning he drew them a word picture. -- I would have to think about that. I would have more thought him to have been stating what the Lord told him to tell them and that they were comforted by a revelation of truth.

    Date setting for our Lords return is a bad idea since scripture is plain on that and Paul comments on it a couple of verses after the one about the caught up.
    Processes... Well I didn't particularly want to dwell on that. On the other hand, scripture is not afraid of laying out processes. There are processes for how to do this, what to do in this instance or that in the scripture. There are distinct statements as to what and how certain things will occur, for instance the verse that R was looking for and the ones preceding it. In fact it seems to me that the encouragement Paul is offering is plainly based on them hearing, believing, and knowing about the process he just got through telling them about.
    Now I for one do not know for sure that life on earth has four and a half billion years to run. Scripture is plain on date setting. Its a bad idea.
    Yes, will not the God of all the earth do right? I can't say I have ever thanked God for the earth, but will now heartily join you in that one. In everything give thanks... Probably out of context, but...

    1 2 Mini

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  18. 1 2 Mini - your response is most gracious to an elderly woman - thank you!

    I'm in a rush today, so don't have time to reply fully just now - but maybe other readers would like to comment. I'll return to the thread once the weekend is over.

    Kind regards to you,

    Joan.

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  19. Joan,

    Thank you, I will look forward to that. My purpose for what it is worth (been asking myself), is to divest myself of false beliefs and practices , accurately understand prove and retain scriptural beliefs and practices, challenge your beliefs (and those of silent or vocal observers) and practices ( for as iron is sharpened by iron so one sharpens the countenance of his friend--pardon me if this is not an accurate quote I didn't look it up just now) and generally be Berean in outlook. My primary question regarding any teaching is "what sayeth the scriptures?" If I am to hazard being fully honest herein as regards my purpose, I would have to include the human desire to prove I am right and others are wrong, and make them look as idiotic as possible in the process. Please forgive me in advance if I hit the publish button prematurely without editing my comments that may do so… I hope that at least part of my purpose is to follow up the injunction to keep the unity of the Spirit, for all those who have been sealed unto the day of redemption have that unity, therefore I suggest that the said pre-existing unity should be pursued and kept.
    Because of the layout of Lauries blog, discussions move along and it can be a pain to try to continue or find a conversation. Ian was kind enough to post some things on a Jeremiah thread that I posted over on wikipeebia. I don’t know if you go there, but your comments on that subject and the other one we were talking about (atomistic exegesis of the Timothy verse by JND) would interest me for future consideration by myself.
    Yes, I am that other guy too… It is interesting to me how people react depending on their predisposed prejudices based on their assumption of whether or not a poster is among the brethren. No wonder we feel attacked or under siege. I felt sort of jumped on by several after posting some quotes and asking some questions of that brother among us who seems to display a certain variety of insanity. If I post such that people think I am against the brethren, I get a pat on the back and I feel loved by their response. If I post such that they think I am for the brethren, I get responses that make me feel hated and attacked. The us VS them strain runs deep on both sides of the fence, no? I was going to reply to whoever it was that was so grieved by my supposed mistreatment of yourself that "Joan can take care of herself" among other things but didn't get around to it before that thread sort of got buried, so here they are if they are listening in. Please forgive me if I offended you but I didn’t think I said anything whatsoever about Joan. I posted quotes and asked questions if I recall.

    1 2 Mini

    First cousin of John Walker
    Fifth Column General
    Melbourne ??

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  20. 1 2 Mini
    The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is one of the greatest themes in the bible. Sadly the doctrine has been abused and misused to divide Christians into camps and schools of thought.The doctrine was not given to satisfy our curiosity or contribute to the setting up on new Christian denominations!

    I appreciated Dr Warren Wiersbie write that he had "long since resigned from the planning committee of the Lord's return and was now a member of the welcoming committee".
    The certainty of the Second Coming is surely to give comfort to grieving Christians (who have lost loved ones), an incentive to dedicated service to Christ, a motivation to be ready for that great event and a wake up call to those who do not know Christ. The word the Lord Himself gave was "Watch"

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    1. 1 2 Mini
      I note you have missed or ignored the main point of my posting. Is it true that the leader of the PBCC/EB has assumed the role of "Rapture Co-ordinator"? I presume that is the same role as Chairman of the Planning Committee?
      Personally I am in the Welcoming Committee. Are there many EBs in that Committee or are they too busy making money?

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  21. Yes Gal 5.1.

    "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

    Still, there are those who shout foul at my brethren for "not going by scripture", and although I still don't understand R's point entirely, it is my assumption that R does not believe in the harpazo at all. Possibly it is just the absence of the word rapture, but it seems to me that R denies the harpazo doctrine, not just the presence of the word. Now I cannot understand that if that is the case, and as I mentioned to someone on here, I would like to understand why those who deny it do so. I started this discussion face to face with someone years ago, but if they gave me any sort of logical or scriptural reason for saying the caught up will not occur, it either went over my head, or if I recall, they actually had no good reason for the said denial.
    Anyway, I hope R will comment further, or perhaps someone else who does not believe it will comment. I don't really mind if it is not believed, I am attempting to understand that school of thought. It is my assumption based on the Thessalonians verse, that since the dead in Christ are among those caught up, it won't matter if they believed in it or not prior to their death, and I have to assume the same of those still alive. Believe it or not, up you go in other words. Assuming one is "In Christ" of course.

    1 2 Mini

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  22. 1 2 Mini

    I find it difficult when an individual contributor to this site uses different pseudonyms but here are a couple of scholarly books you might find interesting, if/when you have time:

    ‘Cosmology and New Testament Theology’ (The Library of New Testament Studies) 2008 edited by Jonathan T. Pennington and Sean M. McDonough.

    ‘Unity and Diversity in the New Testament - An Inquiry into the Character of Earliest Christianity’ Third Edition 2006 by James D G Dunn. (Chapter 13, pages 337-371, deal with Apocalyptic Christianity.)

    And this is the address for a helpful web site where contemporary biblical scholars contribute brief articles on all sorts of biblical subjects:

    http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en.aspx

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  23. Joan,

    Thank you for the reply. I will try to make time to look at one or some of these. I apologize for any difficulty I have caused you via pseudonyms, but tell me. What would you do if you began to question your lifelong beliefs and were at risk of losing your entire family for life if your identity was known?

    Gal 5.1

    Your reply landed above my reply, but anyway... I thought I had understood and summed up your main point by means of quoting our Lords word to "watch" even as you previously had. Then as to your questions in 11:53, surely you cannot be serious in expecting me to reply to those?

    1 2 Mini

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  24. Joan,

    I took a little time to look at the three resources you mentioned in your 8:04 post on this thread. I found a pdf of the one by Dunn and read the 30 or 40 pages you directed me to. Then I found a pdf summary of the cosmology one and read that.

    As I think I mentioned on here somewhere, I was hoping that R would further engage as to the rapture question. I also hope you will be willing to dialog on this seeing as it apparently interests you enough to have offered some reply to my comments to R.

    As a result of looking at the 3 items you suggested, I begin to jump to conclusions as to your meaning and reasons for joining the conversation. I don't know just what to do with those conclusions, but it would still interest me to understand why the rapture is so vehemently denied by some. What I have put together from your comments and from reading the resources is that you also probably deny the rapture, but of course I don't know if that is the case. To me the concept that "it is understandable that they thought that way" because their world view was apocalyptic being used as a reason to deny the plain statement of scripture is a mistake. I don't know if that is what you meant, but it is what i conclude thus far.

    The source and influence of my view and beliefs could well be not of God and in error, but of course I don't really think so. As I see it, either scripture is an inspired message from God to myself or it isn't. If it is, then as to the harpazo, either Paul is a liar or Gods messenger. If he is a liar, the epistles are worthless. If he is Gods messenger, I feel bound to take at face value what he says and believe it as it reads.

    I think R was talking about the Bible being the Word of God, so I assume we agree on that point. I can't be sure why, but can only guess as to why the conversation seems to have been dropped by R immediately after I cited the verse in Thessalonians.

    With all due respect, I hope you are not offended by any of what I have said, -- that is not my intent. I do hope you or R will further educate me on why I should discard my belief on the caught up if indeed I should. If the doctrine is not of God, then without doubt I must discard it.

    1 2 Mini

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  25. 1 2 Mini - just a quick note.

    I don't hold to the Brethren teaching of a secret rapture, which presupposes that heaven is somehow 'up there' in space-time; but I appreciate that in mid-C1 AD the mostly Jewish Thessalonian converts would have grasped that concept, not only because of the limits of their cosmological understanding but also because of their Hebrew traditions. They, and Jesus and the apostle Paul, were very familiar with Genesis 28:12 (and other similar Hebrew Bible texts). I find it interesting that some while after Paul's first letter the author of John's Gospel makes a similar reference, in chapter 1:51. With the military might of Imperial Rome in the background and their reading of apocalyptic literature, the apostle sought to encourage the young church to believe in another reality and naturally he used the terminology of his the age and his tradition.

    Do you know the books of John Polkinghorne, I wonder? He was a particle physicist and Professor of Mathematical Physics at Cambridge University before being ordained in the Church of England. He writes in an easily understandable style from a basis of scientific knowledge. You might like to start with 'Science and Religion in Quest of Truth' published in 2011 by SPCK.

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    1. Joan,

      This got sort of long, and is in 2 parts. If it is too long, I will count on Laurie to not post it.


      Thank you for your comments. I had never heard of Polkingthorne, but have read through what I suppose to be a copy of the introduction (I found a pdf) to the book you cite. Interesting reading, and I may get the book. Not sure which mattress I will hide it under though. Having read the introduction, I think I could easily enjoy a conversation with or lecture by him.
      Perhaps you can straighten me out on what was and is a lingering question to my mind in regard of John Polkingthorne. As I read this and that about him and his work, a question arose in my mind. Namely "is this man saved"? or "what is his take on eternity, soul salvation, and the like?" I looked around but didn't find much of him in that regard, nor have I attempted to crack the Anglican code on this sort of subject.

      I don't know just what rationalism is, but as I read some items, I began thinking he is just looking at things from a rational point of view with an attempt to arrive at conclusions through experimental proof and so on. From my perspective, it is difficult to reconcile such an outlook with God given soul redeeming faith. I think along the lines that if a man has faith in God, he is not setting out to prove the existence of God to himself nor any other.
      Having read the intro, I was pleasantly startled to find him making statements that resonate with my beliefs in some areas. The last sentence in the following quote from the introduction to his book being one such statement.

      "If science is human reflection on impersonal encounter with
      the physical world, theology is reflection on transpersonal encounter
      with the sacred reality of God. It is immediately apparent
      that this is likely to be a much more difficult and subtle
      task even than that pursued by science. We transcend the
      physical world and can put it to empirical testing through the
      contrivance of experiments. In science the initiative of discovery
      lies largely with the experimenter. God transcends finite
      humanity and is not open to experimental manipulation."

      1 2 mini

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    2. Part 2

      And then another:

      "God is not to be met with simply in a spirit of intellectual
      curiosity, but with openness to the experience of awe and a
      demand for obedience. Religious knowledge is much more
      ‘dangerous’ than scientific knowledge, for it can imply consequences
      for the way we live our lives, requiring not only the
      assent of the intellect but also the assent of the will."

      I did not know there was a war between science and religion or theology as opposed alternate possibilities to arrive at truth. I gather there is such a thing. For my part science was dissecting a frog to see how it works, and since God created the frog, I would have concluded along with J Polkingthorne that the "how" of science runs parallel with the "why" of theology producing what he calls "binocular vision". Forgive me this observation: the joke is on John Polkingthorne--I have only two degrees and yet I have always known what he possibly took a while to conclude. My degrees are in benighted bigotry of course.

      As to our Lords seeming or apparent reference to Josephs dream, why do you find that correlation interesting and what is your point in citing those scriptures? I don't know about space time, but I do believe that heaven is 'up there' based on my limited cosmological understanding, Christian tradition, and plain statements of scripture like Acts 1 v 9, 10, 11 and others. What portion of current cosmological understanding am I missing that might cause me to conclude that heaven is not 'up there'? I admit that this seems entirely irrelevant to me, and I think that if I understand the following quote from John Pilkingthorne, he also might say that such is irrelevant, but perhaps I misunderstand him.

      "Any physicist today understands much more about the universe
      than Isaac Newton ever did, simply by living three centuries
      later than that great genius. In religion, as in every other kind
      of personal encounter with reality, there is no presumption to
      be made of the superiority of the present over the past. Just
      as the individual creative work of Bach and Beethoven is an
      indispensable part of our present experience of music, so in
      theology the insights of great figures of the past— Augustine,
      Aquinas, Calvin and the rest—remain a necessary part of
      the contemporary conversation. There is no necessary implication
      of the superiority in every respect of twenty- firstcentury
      theological insight over that of earlier centuries, any
      more than there is of contemporary music over that of the
      past. Theological thinking has to be prepared to span the centuries
      in a way that is not paralleled in science."

      1 2 Mini

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  26. 1 2 Mini
    Their appears some confusion about our Lords Jesus Christ’s second coming.

    When talking to Exclusive Brethren over matters of the Bible there can sometimes be uncertainty and confusion about the topic being discussed, because the Brethren often use different descriptive words to that of both mainstream Christianity and the Bible. Consequently, crossed wires and misunderstanding comes in where it need not. Very often we are talking about the same thing, but because the Brethren insist on using different words to describe something, the Brethren perception is that other Christians understanding or theology is in error. Exclusive Brethren seem to enjoy being ‘different’ for the simple reason that it creates that ‘special group’ feeling.

    A classic example of this is the application and meanings of ‘Assembly’, ‘Church’ and ‘One Body’, which have all been given different meanings to that described by the Bible and mainstream Christianity

    Anyway back to the confusion about our Lords Jesus Christ’s second coming. In all my posts above I have been very clear about this subject

    I follow what the Bible says, that the Lord will come for his own in the second appearing or second coming of Christ. 1 2 Mini and the Exclusive Brethren call that the ‘Rapture’ yet as I have stated many times in my posts above, the Bible does not use the word ‘Rapture’.

    It appears we both believe in the second appearing or second coming of Christ, which is the point where all who believe in Christ will be with (or gathered to) Christ. This is the point where all blood bought Christians from any or no denomination will be with Christ. Yet, I call it the second coming or appearing of Christ and 1 2 Mini and the Exclusive Brethren call it the ‘Rapture’. 1 2 Mini has also used the phrase ‘caught up’ and this I would agree with because that is in the Bible. But (again as I have said before), nowhere in the Bible is this process described as the ‘Rapture’

    Its been said by 1 2 Mini that 1 Thessalonians 4 contains the ‘Rapture’ doctrine. Here is 1 Thess 4 16-18 JN Darby version

    - 16 for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
    17 then *we*, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in [the] clouds, to meet the Lord in [the] air; and thus we shall be always with [the] Lord.
    18 So encourage one another with these words.

    Yet even this, using the JN Darby Bible, does not use the word ‘Rapture’

    Before anyone thinks I am just being picky, pedantic, or disputing unnecessarily, let me explain why I don’t use the word ‘Rapture’ to describe the second appearing of Christ.

    One of the essential key parts of the so called ‘rapture’ doctrine invented by JN Darby (circa 1830) and therefore a core part of the Exclusive Brethren’s doctrine today, is that of the so called ‘secret rapture’, which Joan has already mentioned above.

    When Exclusive Brethren speak of the ‘rapture’ what they are really referring to is the ‘secret rapture’ where only the assembly (In EB speak, the word assembly means just those in the EB grp), is caught up or ‘raptured’ and this apparently happens secretly.

    The ‘secret rapture’ doctrine, is error and false teaching introduced by JN Darby and continued by generations of leaders and members within Exclusive Brethrenism. Yet, nowhere in the Bible is there a description of the second coming of Christ happening in secret. A quick look at 1 Thessalonians 4 as quoted above (and many other Scriptures) shows there is nothing secret at all about the second coming of Christ.

    This is why I don’t use the word ‘Rapture’ to describe the second coming or appearing of our Lord Jesus when he gathers his own to be with Him. The word ‘rapture’ and the ‘rapture doctrine’ is associated with error and false teaching.

    R

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    1. R

      No doubt the confusion will lift when we are snatched up into the clouds of the air to meet our Lord. But we are supposed to comfort one another with these words, not go to war over them. The caught up was a secret (if I am allowed an opinion) but unfortunately we will have to share it since the cat has been out of the bag for some time now! Do you think any of the brethren will be there? I expect it can happen any moment since I don’t know the day or hour and since I am to watch. Also, I suspect it is somewhat obscure to at least some. I mean that since we are snatched up into clouds to meet Him, and since it is a special group (those in Christ) I assume that those remaining earth bound cannot see through the clouds. (Acts 1v9) As far as trumpets go, I don’t know of course, but what might sound like thunder to an unbeliever might turn out to be the voice of an heavenly trumpet to one waiting and longing for his Lords return.

      1 2 Mini

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    2. I think the most telling words in your contribution are "I don't know,of course"
      It is always good to acknowledge that we have not all the answers. That is one of the reasons as I have said previously that I prefer to be in the "welcoming committee" rather than "the planning committee".

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    3. I appreciate that...to some degree anyway. The written word of one and another can be difficult to understand. If the chart at http://tinyurl.com/oq8fzz9 is anywhere close to accurate, it may help in understanding why.
      It bothers me (BOTHERS ME BOThers me bothers me (Fading off into the distance) ) that accusations and seeming vitriol are continually directed at my brethren with the seeming hypocritical intention to "help" the brethren "see through" this and that. Honestly a lot of (and in my opinion the overbearing tone of the Brethren Bashing sites (keep calm LJO and R, its scriptural to have an opinion) ) the posters seem to me to be equally blinded with Brethren, by their own version of truth, fact or proof. (OK only almost equally if you insist)
      Folks complain that PB cannot follow through with a logical discussion. I find the same when I attempt to understand the point of view of some non PB who apparently do not share my views on this or that. It almost seems that they also live in a siege mentality and are afraid of losing face or something. It is really hard to tell. Especially so when one cannot get a discussion completed on one single item.
      Try kindness, try wit, try meeting with their own sources to show interest, try insanity and all to no apparent avail.
      Does anyone really want to help the brethren out of the mess they are in, or are the blogs just for the personal healing of the various posters…? (I am ok with that too, just sayin')
      So what about you Sir (or should that read madam?), do you think any of the brethren will be included in the caught up described in the verse I was trying to discuss with R? Or is that a question to harsh, too unreasonable to ask? I honestly would like to understand another point of view even though I may not ultimately agree with it.
      By the way, (Please picture the two of us sharing a glass of wine in the French joint I am sitting in at the moment, best of friends, congenially ribbing one another…) you are Sir, a hypocrite par excellence. If hypocrisy is the pretension to be what one is not that is. Your choice of pseudonym describes exactly what you are not. Were you so, you would use your real name. If this makes you angry, have I not spoken truth? I bear you no ill, and while I have not discussed it with you that I know of, I suspect you to be a brother in Christ. Please don’t be offended, else I have a job more difficult than the Sacking of Rome. (Proverbs 18v19)

      Joining you in the hypocrite club, for I have not had


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    4. Part 1

      1 2 mini

      “..do you think any of the brethren will be included in the caught up described in the verse I was trying to discuss with R? Or is that a question to harsh, too unreasonable to ask?”

      Your asking persons to hypothesise

      The short answer is, no man in the flesh, (as we all are until we are with Christ), can give a definitive yes or no answer to your question because only God knows. I do pray that you will read your Bible because in it you will find the answers to your questions. It teaches -

      2 Timothy 2 v19 says - Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, [The] Lord knows those that are his;

      John 10 v27 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them life eternal; and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand.

      Philippians 3 v8 But surely I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all, and count them to be filth, that I may gain Christ; 9 and that I may be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [would be] on the principle of law, but that which is by faith of Christ, the righteousness which [is] of God through faith, 10 to know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11 if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among [the] dead.

      John 13 v34 A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves.

      1 John 1 v6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not practise the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as *he* is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us [our] sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

      John 14 v15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

      1 John 3 v19 And hereby we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall persuade our hearts before him—20 that if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness towards God, 22 and whatsoever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and practise the things which are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another, even as he has given us commandment. 24 And he that keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us.

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    5. Part 2

      1 2 mini

      The scriptures in the above post tell you what God says in His Holy Word about the subject you raise – ‘those who will be with Christ’. The above scriptures apply to ALL Christians not just the pbcc eb.

      There is much uncertainty with pbcc eb members, because pbcc eb do not practice what the Holy Bible or Christ teaches.

      Much of what pbcc eb practice is opposed to core teachings of the Bible as shown by some of the extracts. Christians must practice and obey what Christ & the Holy Bible teaches, in order that we be 'with Christ at the caught up'.

      Just a quick glance at some pbcc eb practices shows that they dont obey or practice Christ and his teachings in the Holy Bible. Such a situation would not be supported by Christ because he does not support false teaching which opposes His own Holy Word !

      So to make it clearer for you -

      Pbcc eb doctrines of - separation from all others & refusing to eat or drink with all others (inc other Christians), no worship, fellowship or sitting at the Lords Table with other Christians, supporting immorality & false teaching of James Taylor Junior, teaching that deceit & cover up are acceptable, teaching ‘the only place’ & ‘you cant be a christian outside of it’ & ‘pbcc eb is the church’ etc etc,

      - Would not be supported by Christ as those pbcc eb doctrines & many more are contradictory & opposite to what Christ teaches !

      Gods Holy Word in Matthew 7 v16-23 is a sober warning for sectarian heretical false teaching groups like Plymouth brethren christian church exclusive brethren & Jehovah’s witnesses & Mormons -

      Matthew 7 v 16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do [men] gather a bunch of grapes from thorns, or from thistles figs? 17 So every good tree produces good fruits, but the worthless tree produces bad fruits. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruits, nor a worthless tree produce good fruits. 19 Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. 20 By their fruits then surely ye shall know them. 21 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. 22 Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied through *thy* name, and through *thy* name cast out demons, and through *thy* name done many works of power? 23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

      Following & obeying such heretical false teaching as practiced by Plymouth brethren christian church exclusive brethren is a dangerous thing to do as it ignores, mocks and abuses the teachings in the Holy Bible and puts the Lords name to sectarian immoral practices & doctrines.

      Clearly that puts the pbcc eb in a precarious position

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  27. R (I will assume it is you since no one else is capable of the above--forgive me if I am wrong and you had your husband do it for you. Joan and I would be so pleased if you would use a consistent pseudonym.)

    I will not always shrive with your massive missives and shall order the short shrift for this one too. (traitors Sir, should be shot or hanged just ask Mr. Sales)

    As you say, I asked:
    “..do you think any of the brethren will be included in the caught up described in the verse I was trying to discuss with R?"
    and you replied:
    "Your asking persons to hypothesise"

    Wrong Sir. There is nothing hypothetical about it. Indeed the Lord alone knows them that are His. I was asking what you think. You. You. You. What do you think?

    For my part, I think many of them will be. I shudder to think that some of them may not be. If we must continue the us VS them thing, I will add that I think many of those not among brethren will be included and I shudder even more to think that most will not be. I hope I am wrong about that.

    What about yourself? Will you be there? I will be. (when the roll is called up yonder I'll be there)

    I suppose it likely I have misunderstood you once again, but your comments:

    "There is much uncertainty with pbcc eb members, because pbcc eb do not practice what the Holy Bible or Christ teaches. "

    and

    "Much of what pbcc eb practice is opposed to core teachings of the Bible as shown by some of the extracts. Christians must practice and obey what Christ & the Holy Bible teaches, in order that we be 'with Christ at the caught up'. "

    These comments then seem to me to indicate a works based salvation of some sort. I don’t believe in a works based salvation, do you? That would seem to me a Galatian re-introduction of Judaism. Are you quite sure you are not blinded by some variety of anti-sectarian sectarianism? Allow me to slide my oak glazed spectacles down my nose to remove that there maple twig you are wearing.


    1 2 Mini

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    1. Yes 1 2 Mini, it is I

      1 2 Mini
      You say – “Wrong Sir. There is nothing hypothetical about it. Indeed the Lord alone knows them that are His. I was asking what you think. You. You. You. What do you think?”

      1 2 Mini you ‘are’ asking persons to hypothesise because only the Lord alone knows them that are His, which you yourself admit in your reply, therefore to ask anyone else whether others will be with the Lord is pure conjecture & hypotheses because only the Lord knows those that are His, we as ‘in the flesh’ don’t know

      Yes 1 2 Mini you did ask what I think and I told you based on the information & evidence to hand.

      I gave you scripture evidence to explain what the Bible says about those who are Christ’s and who will be with Christ, did you consider those scriptures before making your reply ?

      You seem to be trying to pin me down to say yes or no, which I cant do, because only the Lord knows those that are His.

      1 2 Mini
      You say – “For my part, I think many of them will be”

      1 2 Mini, do you think God approves of members of a sectarian group that separate themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ, who ignore vast swathes of Biblical teaching, who think JT Jnr is ‘pure’, who withdraw from Christians who leave, who refuse to eat or drink with other Christians etc ? Do you realise that the Holy Bible teaches that God hates sectarianism ?

      Did you read the scripture reference above – “1 John 1 v6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not practise the truth.” Do you think this applies to pbcc eb ?

      1 2 Min
      You say – “I will add that I think many of those not among brethren will be included and I shudder even more to think that most will not be. I hope I am wrong about that.”

      1 2 Mini your statement is arrogant & presumptive because the clear implication is that you think the vast majority of those in heaven will be pbcc eb. Is this correct ?

      Can you please explain what you mean ?
      Can you please explain “shudder even more to think that most will not be” ?
      Why do you think that way ?
      Why do you think most wont be ?
      Who do you think the real Christians are outside of pbcc eb ?
      What do you understand by the term ‘Body of Christ’ ?
      Why do you think you are qualified to declare that “most wont be” when scripture says only ‘the Lord knows those that are His” ?

      I will respond on the rest of your comments later

      R

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    2. 1 2 Mini

      You say –
      “I suppose it likely I have misunderstood you once again...These comments then seem to me to indicate a works based salvation of some sort. I don’t believe in a works based salvation, do you?”

      Yes you have misunderstood.

      I don’t believe in a works based salvation but Christians should follow & obey what the Holy Bible teaches (eg Christ & the Biblical Apostle Paul),in our everyday lives, as it is Gods Word, otherwise, what is the point of the Bible, we could just ignore what it teaches couldn’t we ?

      Now,

      Pbcc eb don’t follow what Gods Word, the Bible teaches do they ?. They follow the words & rules of men (JT, BDH, etc), which contradict Gods Word. So that is why I say -

      “"There is much uncertainty with pbcc eb members, because pbcc eb do not practice what the Holy Bible or Christ teaches. "

      I then further explained this statement with some examples of pbcc non biblical practices, in the post at 6 Feb 14:38. Do you agree with these non-biblical practices ?

      Now,

      If you read the Biblical references given in 6 Feb 14:10 you will see the following -

      John 10 v27 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them life eternal; and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand.

      - So Christians have to follow Christ & his voice - Yet pbcc eb follow the teachings of men (JND, JT, JTjnr, BDH etc) & ignore Christ’s teachings

      Philippians 3 v8 But surely I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all, and count them to be filth, that I may gain Christ; 9 and that I may be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [would be] on the principle of law, but that which is by faith of Christ, the righteousness which [is] of God through faith, 10 to know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11 if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among [the] dead.

      - So Christians have to have knowledge of Christ & gain Christ & know Him in order to be found in Him - Yet pbcc eb have knowledge of ‘ministry of men’ & ignore the teachings of Christ

      John 13 v34 A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves.

      - So Christians have to love one another the same as Christ has loved us to show that we are Christ’s - Yet pbcc eb separate from all other Christians refusing to eat or drink with them, or even to worship, fellowship, or commune with them, which is the opposite of Christ’s teachings

      1 John 1 v6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not practise the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as *he* is in the light, we have fellowship with one another….”

      - So Christians are to walk in the light as Christ is, in other words to follow the teachings of Christ – Yet pbcc eb claim to have fellowship with Christ but in fact ignore His teachings so therefore walk in darkness

      John 14 v15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

      - So Christians are to keep the commandments (teachings) of Christ – Yet pbcc eb ignore the teachings of Christ & the Word of God in favour of teachings of ‘men’

      1 John 3 v19 “22 and whatsoever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and practise the things which are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another, even as he has given us commandment. 24 And he that keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us.”

      - So Christians know we are in the truth if we keep His commandments, practice what pleases Him & love one another – Yet pbcc eb do the exact opposite

      R

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    3. 1 2 Mini

      In case you are still mystified why I say to you that –

      “"There is much uncertainty with pbcc eb members, because pbcc eb do not practice what the Holy Bible or Christ teaches. "

      Please read the following list of pbcc eb member practices & doctrines –

      - refusing to eat or drink with non members even other Christians
      - refusing to worship, fellowship, have communion with other Christians
      - declaring all other Christians as somehow ‘iniquitous’ and ‘not fit’
      - declaring all other Christian Churches as in error
      - withdrawing fellowship from persons who go to other Christian Churches
      - declaring that only the pbcc eb is ‘the right place’
      - declaring that ‘you cant be a Christian if you leave’
      - dividing & separating families if a person leaves the group
      - declaring that an alcoholic womaniser is ‘pure’ & a ‘man of god’
      - ignoring Biblical instruction to have plural appointed local elders / leaders
      - allowing a ‘one man ministry’ your universal leaders ie JT, BDH
      - keeping separate to all other Christians as though other Christians would defile
      - being taught that if you speak to outsiders ‘you will be defiled or contaminated
      - being taught the holy spirit is only free in the pbcc eb
      - being taught only the pbcc does things by divine standards
      - being taught that the Lord only visits the pbcc eb in the breaking of bread
      - if you leave for another Christian Church, you have left Christianity
      - that somehow pbcc eb is a ‘recovery of the truth’
      - that the pbcc eb is the assembly and is the church
      - teaching that your not in the assembly or church if your not in pbcc eb
      - teaching that you cant be saved if you are outside the pbcc
      - being taught that your leaders (JT, BDH etc) are ‘the paul of our time’
      - saying you follow the biblical apostle Paul, yet in reality don’t
      - saying you follow the Bible yet in reality don’t & instead follow rules of ‘men’
      - treating the words of men (the ministry books) as equal to holy scripture
      - obeying & submitting to the ‘ministry’ even when it contradicts scripture
      - introducing non biblical rules which become a ‘test of fellowship’ if broken
      - lying to & deceiving authorities about the real practices of pbcc eb
      - a pr program of hypocrisy, spin & half truths re the CC matter since 2012
      - having a website which lies about your real practices
      - declaring it to be a ‘sin’ if persons leave to go to another Christian church
      - allowing babes in arms to take the communion bread & cup
      - ripping scripture out of its contextual & original meaning to justify pbcc agenda
      - no confession of faith required before taking communion
      - no acknowledgement of the decades of harm & detriment pbcc have created
      - not implementing the conditions of the CC agreement of Jan 2014
      - no engagement in missionary work, or evangelism with other Christians

      I could go on but these points will suffice for now

      1 2 Mini

      Each of these pbcc eb member practices & doctrines listed above are contrary to what the Bible (the Word of God) teaches & instructs Christians to do. These pbcc eb member practices & doctrines can NOT be found in the Word of God the Bible. Such a situation would not be supported by Christ because He can not support false teaching which opposes His own Holy Word !

      1 2 Mini

      Do you believe that God can introduce & approve of rules, doctrines, behaviours & actions which contradict & oppose His own written Word (the Bible) ?

      Pbcc eb members can not claim to follow Christ & the Bible, yet, then practice doctrines which either ignore or contradict core Christian teachings in the Bible, do you agree ?

      R

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    4. 1 2 Mini

      Taking two doctrines / practices of pbcc eb members from the list -

      - refusing to worship, fellowship, have communion with other Christians
      - declaring all other Christians as somehow ‘iniquitous’ and ‘not fit’

      Here are some references from Gods Word (Bible) showing the above doctrines ignore, contradict or twist Biblical instructions

      Ephesians 4 – One Body, One Lord One Spirit & warnings against following doctrines of men & against falsehoods, all ignored by pbcc as they separate from the Body & they follow JND, FER, JT, JTjnr, BDH, rather than the Bible

      1 Corinthians 12 – Details operations & services of the Spirit & One Body, One Lord, One Spirit, how the Body works & how Christians should appreciate it & warns against separating the Body, all ignored by pbcc & teach the Spirit is only with them

      Romans 12 – The One Body, affection for it & different gifts, all ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians & teach only pbcc have gifts

      1 Corinthians 1 – Warns against a separatist sectarian path & teaching re salvation & preaching, all ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians & claim you can only be saved in the pbcc

      3 John 1 – Warns against dividing, separating & stopping Christians from meeting with other Christians, ignored by pbcc as they separate from the One Body & withdraw fellowship from those who meet with other Christians

      Romans 8 v35-39 – None can separate Christians from the love of God, ignored by pbcc as they declare anyone that leaves them has left Christianity

      Romans 14 – Him who is weak in faith receive, ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians which is grieving to Christ / other Christians. Pbcc don’t allow or accept freedom of individual conscience

      Romans 15v7 – Christians to receive other Christians as Christ has received us, ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians

      John 3 v16 – Whosoever believes’, ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians & declare those that leave to go to other Christian churches as ‘left Christ’ & not fit to fellowship with

      1 Corinthians 11 – Instructions for Lords Supper, ignored by pbcc as they allow babes in arms to take it & refuse to sit at the Lords Table with other genuine Christians in the Body of Christ, also teaching that only pbcc holds Lords Supper

      Romans 16 – Warning to all Christians about divisions, ignored by pbcc as they separate from the rest of the Body of Christ

      1 Corinthians 5 v11 – Not to mix or eat with fornicators, idolators, drunkards, avaricious etc, ignored by pbcc & instead applied to all other Christians in the Body of Christ as a reason not to mix with them. Shocking abuse of scripture & denigrating to the work of Christ in the millions of Christians outside pbcc

      1 John 4 – Loving one another & if we say we love God but hate other Christians we are a liar, ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians refusing to eat or drink or worship or fellowship or have communion with them

      Romans 10 – No difference of Jew or Greek, same Lord, Christians submit to Christ’s instructions & whoever calls on the Lord shall be saved, ignored by pbcc as teach pbcc are ‘special’ & only with them can persons be saved

      2 John 1 – Christians should love one another & follow Christ’s commandments, ignored by pbcc as they separate from all other Christians & ignore vast commandments of Christ

      2 Timothy 2 – To ‘withdraw from iniquity’, yet pbcc apply that to include all other Christians outside of their group

      1 Corinthians 10 – instructions for the Lords Supper, eating with others & Lords Table, none of which is applied by pbcc eb, they even say the Lords Table is only with pbcc eb & all other Christian Churches are ‘tables of demons’

      Hebrews 10 – assembling together with other Christians, yet pbcc apply that to just themselves

      1 2 Mini

      Do you think God can support such teaching & practice which opposes His own Holy Word the Bible ?

      R

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