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Friday, 14 November 2014

BDH on being broken, smashed, obedient and submissive

From Wikipeebia; 

http://wikipeebia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=634&p=4395#p4395

The idea that if someone is out of line they or their wills need to be broken, smashed, crushed etc. is very prominent in Brethren ministry, especially the ministry of B. D. Hales. 

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P498
page 17-18 (Westfield, 26 April 2013)

Quote:
But you’ve got to pull up disobedience. If the young people are disobedient you can’t let them go on just being lawless, got to deal with it somehow, you’ve got to win them round to see the attractiveness of being obedient. And that would be set out in the father. The father is an obedient man, and his will is broken, and he’s a contributor in the local assembly, and he loves all the saints, then that will be demonstrated, and the young persons will follow that on, they see that’s the way to go. That’s a better way to go, is just to be obedient and submit.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 471 page 8 (Sydney, 23 June 2012)
Quote:
See, Paul's mind was broken down straight away; that is, the strong natural mind, the will that he had, was broken down.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 478 page 2 (Sydney, 7 October 2012)
Quote:
Christ taking up someone’s case, taking up your case, and you, you allowing yourself to be taken up, allowing yourself to be taken by the hand of Jesus, allowing your will to be subdued, allowing your will to be broken, allowing yourself to be convicted by the glad tidings, allowing the glad tidings to break your will, enter into your heart, so that you have a change, you have a change of heart, you have a change of outlook.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 478 page 3 (Sydney, 7 October 2012)
Quote:
Have you come up proud? Have you been brought up proud? Have you come up, you know, I've got a right, I've got a right to be what I want to be, no matter how worthless it is or rotten it is, I've still got a right to be what I want to be? Well, you haven't come up a broken way. And I suppose, in some sense, none have. But what a favour it is to come up in the company of broken persons, broken man, men that are broken, men that have fallen on their face at the feet of Jesus.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 478 page 25 (Sydney, 17 November 2012)
Quote:
What's needed is repentance. That means I'm broken down.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 484 (Sydney, 30 December 2012)
Quote:
Then he saw it in Stephen, he saw the testimony of Stephen, he saw Stephen's courage, he saw Stephen's unflinching testimony, right up to his martyrdom, his cruel martyrdom, and he saw
Stephen's spirit. And he was on the wrong side, but he was broken down. 
What a wonderful matter that is, beloved, to be broken down by the grace of Christ, by the love of Christ.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 506 page 32 (June 2013)
Quote:
Mark came from a privileged background, but I don't think he would have acted when he came back like as if he had come from a privileged background, I think he would have been a lowly person. As our brother said, he would have been a broken person.

Page 33:
Quote:
H.S.D—h. Well, I've just been pondering a little the matter of being broken. You said that Mark really
remained broken, he never got in any other position. Do you think that a brokenness would be a certain attraction of the Holy Spirit to come and join Himself to that weakness?
B.D.H. Yes, that's very good.

Page 60:
Quote:
But, see, if I'm not thorough, if I'm not really broken about something, see, I won't tell all the truth. That's the difficulty. If we told all the truth earlier, all the truth, we'd be far better, further on
now, and we'd be a better influence in our families, and we'd be a much better influence in our localities, if we'd told the whole truth first up, first off.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 527 page 59 (Sydney, 1 September 2013
Quote:
What a privilege it is to submit to the Creator, to take Him at His word, to find your place at the cross
of Christ, to find a settlement there, to find that your will is broken, to find that you're prepared to give it up, just be amenable.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 530 page 5 (Katoomba, 5 December 2013)
Quote:
See, Paul was a special case, the way he was taken up. What's been said is he had the strongest will, but it was broken, the grace of Christ came in and it was broken, it was smashed.

Page 10
Quote:
P.W.C. So would —a broken person wouldn't lose ground. David goes over, the bones that Thou hast
broken, attributes it to God, doesn't he? 
B.D.H. Yes. Well, that's a good reference. He says, the bones which Thou hast broken may rejoice.
Where's that now? 
M.A.S. Verse 8.

Page 20:
Quote:
But, see, if a person is broken, how much more do you have to say to them?

Page 81-82 (Sydney, 8 December 2013)
Quote:
That's when you can tell when persons are getting right. We referred to it the other time, recently, we said, and when you're in the presence of a true priest he doesn't say a lot either. If you're right, if you're repentant, if you're broken, if you're smashed, and you want to get clear of your histories, then a true priest won't have much to say, he won't have much to say.

Ministry of B. D. Hales, Vol. 125 page 285 (Barbados, 27 July 2012)
Quote:
Now we’ve got this situation about Mark, and l’ve read about this woman because she’s broken, and Mark points her up. As we know, this is the only account where the alabaster flask is broken. And that’s a key thing, that’s a key critical point in recovery, is to come back a broken person. Much better to get broken while you’re in fellowship, I can tell you that much.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (Pocket White Book) P 521 page 23 (Sydney, 27 October2013)
Quote:
Think of the glory of coming into this kingdom that Christ has now. That's what the thief came into; what a wonderful matter he came into it, he came subdued, perfectly subdued, presence of Christ, you know, his will was broken. The other one was still speaking up as recorded. But the thief that was captured by Christ, his will, his will was broken.

Ministry of B. D. Hales Vol. 128 pages 180-181 (Melbourne, 20 October 2012)
Quote:
G.A.F. Would we need to identify a subtle resistance of scrutiny? Because is it scrutiny really accepted that will produce brokenness?
B.D.H. Yes, and a scrutiny that exposes really what I'm, the way I'm going, do you follow?

Ministry of B. D. Hales Vol. 125 page 50 (Penrith, 8 July 2012)
Quote:
The struggle is getting our wills broken.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 493 page 53-54 (Perth, 23 March 2013)
Quote:
D—l.J.F. This woman was a broken person. It's been said the assembly loves a broken person.
B.D.H. Yes.
D—l.J.F. Is that what God can make much of, do you think?
B.D.H. Yes, that's exactly right. That was in a preaching or an address of Mr. Taylor Jr., wasn't it, 1967, in France? I think I'm right about that. I remember our beloved brother bringing that book out and reading it, the address through with us, in his house in July '94 after he came back from here. And he was there at that preaching. The assembly loves a broken person. See, the world likes what's bold and very forward and... He said, Keep on, I think, something like that, he said, Keep on with your brokenness. That's something to be kept constantly before us. See, we've had Psalm 51, that's
very beautiful, a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise. But we need to keep at it, we have to really addict ourselves to a broken spirit.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 483 page 41 (Chippenham, 5 December 2012)
Quote:
J.G.G. Yes. Well, I'm sure that's right. And Mordecai was a broken man, wasn't he? He would have set out brokenness. I think--I noticed something of J.S.H. just recently, he said, Brokenness is that I acknowledge that there's a superior mind than what I have. So brokenness would be that I'm always ready to be adjusted. I acknowledge what is superior, and that would be the Lord's word coming through whoever it is, you see. Adjustment normally would take place in the area of the prophetic word as we're together. Of course, that raises a challenge as to whether we are sufficiently exercised to make way for the prophetic word. 

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 482 page 16-17 (Sydney, 22 December 2012)
Quote:
You find it in young persons at times, when you have to do with them, and they're broken,
and the first thing they want to do is, what, can you tell me what to do next? I need to be told what to do. And that's obedience becoming attractive.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 480 page 43 (Sydney, 9 December 2012)
Quote:
A—w.J.S. Would it point up the completeness of Christ's work as I've submitted to it? Crushed is a
total matter, is it?
B.D.H. Yes, yes, I think—of course, the devil would seek to crush us, you see. Paul was smashed, he was smashed on the Damascus road, he was, he was broken down.

Notes of Meetings B. D. Hales and Other Ministry (White Book) 480 page 55 (Sydney, 9 December 2012)
Quote:
H.L.W. I was just thinking, if we despise the opportunity to be broken we have to, may have to come this way of being crushed.
B.D.H. Yes. The Lord wouldn't want to crush us, you see. But we need our, we need our wills crushed, you see, need our wills smashed. What would it take to smash our wills?

And here are some quotations from the Subject Index to the ministry of B. D. Hales
Quote:
we build ourselves up again, we need to be rebroken and rebroken and rebroken. (Vol. 1 page10)
nothing more attractive than the tears in the eyes of a person who's broken (Vol. 25 page 370)
a true conversion, broken up, pulled apart, dismembered in the sight of God. (Vol. 30 page 137)
involves being able to go through a crushing experience. (Vol. 48 page 93)
Paul was smashed morally; some get broken up physically; let the Lord take you apart. (Vol. 62 page 129)
way to get to it is to come under authority; Paul smashed morally not physically. (Vol. 67 page 319)
smashed, is every bone in your body broken. (Vol. 89 page 91)
nothing wrong with being broken when you're old; stay broken. (Vol. 65 page 258)
those who are older need to go back and be broken. (Vol. 21 page 88)
nothing more affecting, tears in the eyes of a young person who's broken. (Vol. 18 page 245)
love seeing a young person broken, in tears, don't stop weeping. (Vol. 25 page 126)

31 comments:

  1. And what a wonderful example BDH is! Just read Bob Thorncroft's letters and in this one man's account of dealing with BDH; good old Beedie is guilty of : lying, bullying, intimidation, pride, deceitfulness, arrogance, cruelty, greed, self-rightousness, prejudice and nepotism - take note you Peebs - this is an example of a broken, smashed, obedient and submissive man.

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  2. Broken = humble, submissive, prepared to listen - as opposed to being arrogant, mean, rude, selfish - all features that mark me naturally and I know that only too well!!!!!!

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  3. Totally disgusting and unacceptable. This is a Man of God? Not in a thousand years.

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  4. I don’t believe any of the ministry quoted above is genuinely Christian. I believe it is all about enabling BDH to impose his will on everyone else. Every will has to be smashed except his, and everyone has to become submissive and obedient to his whims and dictates.

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  5. 'love seeing a young person broken, in tears, don't stop weeping. (Vol. 25 page 126)'

    Child abuse, plain and simple. Been going on for many, many years.

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    1. In the UK and in Australia there have been legislative and administrative moves to treat psychological and emotional abuse as a criminal offence, just like physical and sexual abuse. Some of the ways I have seen Brethren treating dissenters and others in the past would certainly come into that category. I would like to think they have mended their ways, but their ministry does not show much indication of this; nor do the distressed members and ex-members that we meet from time to time, or whom we read about in coroners’ reports.

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  6. Thanks for that Laurie. I have included this in a letter to the Coroner in this latest case.

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  7. I read the ministry quoted at the head of this thread with growing and intense alarm. I noticed that it's dated 2012-2013 so it's not the outpouring of someone who is new to his job as leader.

    Christianity has an honourable tradition of repentance and understands the concept of what the author of John's Gospel characterised as being 'born again'. The New Testament word 'metanoia' signifies this change of direction, changing from being unloving or untruthful, for example, to loving others as you love yourself and telling the truth. The Lord's Prayer itself makes provision for seeking forgiveness and being willing to forgive others.

    If you have time, read this ministry from the New Testament Letter to the Colossians, chapter 3:1-17. It offers an alternative to Mr Hales's teaching and pictures what it means to be a mature Christian.


    "So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory.

    Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). On account of these the wrath of God is coming on those who are disobedient. These are the ways you also once followed, when you were living that life. But now you must get rid of all such things—anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator. In that renewal there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and in all!

    As God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience. Bear with one another and, if anyone has a complaint against another, forgive each other; just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

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  8. Excellent publication. Maybe this will be enough to have this evil conman taken to task. Dear peebs, read the above with an open mind, come to a rational, objective conclusion and dump this ridiculous rubbish from this stupid clown. And good luck Leo, Jim, Granny etc coming up with some apologetic spin on this.

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  9. what is wrong with being submissive, kind, humble, meek rather than aggressive, rude and arrogant? in other words what is wrong with being broken to do Christ's will?

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    1. What is wrong is the unspoken agenda, which is really about being broken to do BDH’s will. The “priests” will not recognise someone as repentant until they are submissive to BDH and his enforcers. Bringing the name of Christ into it is only an excuse. The demands they make are not Christ’s demands. Equally wrong are the methods that have been used to break people, and the psychological distress that they cause.

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    2. I think there's a helpful model of how to challenge people in matters of faith in the Gospel of Mark chapter 10:21 where it's recorded how Jesus replied to a man who asked how he could "inherit eternal life". Jesus referred him to the Torah commandments and was told by the man that he'd been scrupulous in obeying them. In response, "Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’"

      It may well have been a crushing experience for a rich man to contemplate giving his wealth away, but Jesus' values involved doing something about changing what was wrong. His way was not simply to try to break someone down, but to challenge him to think about making a change of direction in his life.

      Jesus' firmness and sensitivity in this encounter remains an example of good practice for all teachers of the Christian way. I would plead with Mr Hales to reconsider how he approaches his work, with young people especially. Put what is right before them, love them and challenge them to change direction if it's necessary, but never ever try to break their spirits.

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    3. Anon 15th Nov 21:55

      Are you actually trying to defend the comments made by Bruce D Hales in the above extracts ?

      In connection with the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church it can be truthfully & factually said -

      a. They are not ‘submissive, kind, humble, meek’ in the context the Christian Bible (Gods Word) speaks of, because they don’t follow Gods Word, they disobey & ignore Gods Word in favour of the words of Bruce Hales, who calls himself “minister of the Lord in the Recovery” a title which is not found in the Bible, & the rest of the so called ‘fathers of the recovery’.

      b. If the PBCC EB were to be ‘submissive’ to Gods Word (The Bible), then they would have to leave the PBCC EB

      c. The PBCC EB are certainly not humble, kind or meek either, because they divide families if a person leaves the group, leaving generations of divided families unable to have normal relations with each other, they prevent the members from worshipping or fellowshipping or communing with any other Christians, they treat all those outside the group as inferior not even fit to eat or drink with, they teach that contact with outsides will ‘leave them defiled’ and that ‘you cant be a Christian if you leave the group, etc etc. None of that is being humble, kind or meek !, is it ?

      d. However, the PBCC EB are indeed “aggressive, rude and arrogant” as the list in point c shows. They intimidate those who expose the harm & detriment. They fight lawsuits through the courts to prevent websites, tv programs, articles, books etc being published. They fight through the courts to divide a family if a family member leaves the group, often using access to the children as emotional, psychological blackmail, they use foul, coarse & aggressive language in tv documentaries, they pursue multi million pound re branding & pr campaigns to try to dupe the public & parliamentarians, they were found to have caused & be causing harm & detriment in the 2014 UK Charity Commission report etc etc

      Anon 15th Nov 21:55

      The details in the points above are factual & substantiated through multiple sources of authoritative evidence & facts.

      It is clear it is the PBCC EB who are ‘aggressive, rude and arrogant’ & by your own words are therefore not doing “Christ's will”

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    4. "What is wrong with being submissive, kind, humble, meek rather than aggressive, rude and arrogant?" Absolutely nothing. That's why we're keen to help decent people out of the EB/PBCC and hopefully see the demise of this aggressive, rude and arrogantly-peopled cult as soon as possible.

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    5. Oh dear, Anon 15 Nov 21:55... "aggressive, rude and arrogant" are exactly the words I and many others would use to describe the default behaviour of HEB members towards anyone who disagrees even in the smallest way with them. Cringe.

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  10. Perhaps reading the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 12:20 "A bruised reed He will not break" might be helpful.
    The EB are swift to use the old testament scripture from which this is taken (Isaiah 42 verses 1-3) to refer to their universal leader which it does not especially if he continually talks of people being broken!

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  11. How long has cutting off families been kind?

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  12. I wonder if BDH has ever been 'smashed', 'broken' and in tears. I doubt it- unless he's been crying all the way to the bank again. He's 'smashed' all the rules - he 'smashed' a lot of people's lives for wrecking their families over things that have now been 'smashed' and he's 'broken' a few rules himself like separation and humility.

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  13. The EB often quote Isaiah 42 verse 1 to support (quite wrongly) their banal mantra "The Lord will never let His servant down". I would suggest that most Christians would take the view that that verse refers prophetically and uniquely to the Lord Jesus.
    However if the EB insist on misusing this scripture I would suggest they continue to verse 3 which reads " A bruised reed He will not break"
    How does this verse fit in with the emphasis on "being broken" which seems to play such a significant part in the so-called ministry of BDH?
    It would seem to me that the EB have completely lost touch with the true spirit of Christianity.

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  14. I am struggling to equate this 'broken/smashed/submissive 'ministry' with the not guilty plea offered in court by a mature,, married PBCC male who was witnessed causing the death of another innocent road user by his dangerous driving at excessive speed.

    It would appear that PBCC dogma is based on do what I say, rather than do what I do?

    I note in another forum BDH shows an unhealthy interest in murder in what is supposed to be a 'Mainstream Church' service. I just pray that the Charity Commission will have their eyes opened to the evil that pervades this fake 'Christian' organisation.

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    1. The CC will only have their eyes opened if we open them for them by sending in any reports of breaches of compliance to the UK trust deed of variation. See here http://wikipeebia.com/compliance/ We have to take action.

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    2. Preaching to the converted Jill, My MP is on the case and complaining to the CC on my behalf for the second time this year.

      Why do you think the PBCC themselves, lobby Westminster, lobby and lobby some more? MP's words carry so much more weight than our own. I would urge people to go down this route too.

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    3. Agree anonymous and so glad you are converted!! But I have heard via a reliable source that the CC will not investigate until the number of complaints reaches critical mass - hence my continuous call! And I agree about the MPs but when I wrote to mine he dismissed me and said it was a CC matter. Glad yours is more enlightened.

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    4. I don’t think the services of an MP are necessary for this exercise. The CC are supposed to base their decisions on law and evidence, not on public opinion or political pressure. Evidence carries more weight if it comes direct from an eyewitness, not via an MP or a third party.

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    5. And you gave up???? Pester them. It's what we pay them to do. You might be surprised at his response now with UKIP on the march in your area.

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    6. Your MP should not dismiss you; he has a duty to act on your behalf. If you ask him to write to the CC expressing your reservations or putting your point of view he has a duty to do so, to get a reply and forward the reply to you. There is an election coming up and the EB/PBCC don't vote!

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    7. Supposition. Meaning a belief held without proof or certain knowledge.

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  15. "I wonder if BDH has ever been 'smashed'"

    I bet he has, in common with other latter-day EB leaders. Like the time JHS fell out of a car when he was as tired as a newt.

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  16. I would like to point out that this idea of being smashed and having one’s will broken is not one of Bruce Hales’ ideas spawned from his original thinking. It is enshrined in the ancient magic and tenets of exclusive brethrenism going back at least as far as F E Raven in the 1890s, and probably back further to J B Stoney. I feel sorry for the young people listening to this type of talk – being smashed – what would they make of it ? It makes one think of physical violence.

    When a teenager in the 1950s I read F E R’s ministry and what he said about “New Birth”. He said he couldn’t define what new birth was but he could recognise its effects, one of which was “the collapse of the man”. This meant that all confidence in ourselves was gone and we only put our confidence in Christ. At the time I turned this over in my mind wondering about “Not having confidence in ourselves” . If one is a brain surgeon, one ought to have confidence in oneself and one’s abilities. The amount of confidence you have in yourself can affect enormously your success in life. Lack of confidence can dog a person through their career, so that their full potential is not realised.

    I would hate to be a young person listening to the idea coming from the supreme boss of the Exclusive Brethren, that to be smashed (meaning to be destroyed, finished with) is necessary , and that it is good to see a young person in tears realising they have to be broken.

    Another supporting concept to this is the following which I frequently heard when an EB: Part of your armour (Ephesians 6) is the sword of the Spirit, which is a two edged sword. One side is to be used to fight for the truth in faithfulness to the Lord and the other side is to be used unsparingly on yourself in self judgement.

    Unless this is explained precisely what is meant I can imagine a young person being really perplexed as I used to be – exactly how is this carried out ?

    C

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    1. It could be enough to make a young PBCC member attempt to cut their own head off with a chainsaw.

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  17. “Breaking Their Will” refers to a variety of abusive methods of control practised by several religious groups. It is also the title of a new book by Janet Heimlich, with the subtitle “Shedding light on Religious Child Maltreatment.” Here is how the book is described by Dale McGowan, Editor of Parenting Beyond Belief and Author of Raising Freethinkers.

    “ ‘Breaking Their Will’ is both heartbreaking and motivating. After rightly noting that religion is most often not harmful to children, Janet Heimlich details the unique ability of religion in its worst manifestations to inflict lasting pain, humiliation, and terror on the most vulnerable members of our society. Perhaps the crowning achievement of the book is its call to action—a chapter devoted to specific ways in which officials, lawmakers, parents, and even faith communities can root out religious child abuse and remove its claims of immunity from challenge.”

    You can read more about it at
    http://religiouschildmaltreatment.com/breaking_their_will/
    http://religiouschildmaltreatment.com/recommended-websites/

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