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Wednesday, 29 October 2014

So different to the Hales exclusive brethren



October 28, 2014 ↔ 45 comments

Justin wept over Church of England child abuse

Welby - tears2

 

The Archbishop of Canterbury gave a speech yesterday to the Parliamentary Press Gallery – a group made up of privileged journalists and reporters who mill around Westminster hour after hour, day in, day out, with the aim or hope of conspiring in leaks, digging the dirt, fabricating spin or relaying briefings about dog control orders. Apparently, Archbishop Justin heckled twice before standing to address his audience: the Lobby seemed to appreciate his directness, honesty, spontaneity and openness.

The full speech may be read HERE(and it is indeed worth reading and reflecting upon, not least for its missional acumen, media shrewdness and constitutional clarity: “The job I have is a strange one because it has absolutely no power at all..”)

But it is the questions which followed the speech which are generating the interest and headlines. And perhaps rightly so, because they were concerned in part with the Church of England’s sordid little secret: it seems, just like the Roman Catholic Church, the BBC, Parliament, sundry children’s homes and many boarding schools, the Church of England has been a hotbed of rampant child abuse (and “rampant” is the Archbishop’s own word). The Established Church is charged with the pastoral care of the nation. To hear that it, too, has been an active participant in the systematic emotional, sexual and physical abuse of children is a bitter lamentation.

The Telegraph reports that the Archbishop broke down in tears with the “shredding effect” of the tales of rape, torture, abuse and neglect. He said some of it is “beyond description – terrible”. And he rightly says that the failure of the Church was greater than other institutions because it purports to hold itself to a “far, far higher standard”.

But, unlike his predecessors at Lambeth Palace and many of those national and global institutions whose instinct has been to whitewash, shred, conspire and cover-up, Archbishop Justin holds himself to a far, far higher standard. Under his leadership, the Church of England is engaged in trawling through decades and thousands of clergy personnel files, actively looking for evidence of abuse which has gone unnoticed, unremarked, unpunished and unrepented. There is “more that has not been revealed”, he admits.

Jesus wept. He is probably doing so again over the stench of hypocrisy which covers this chronic corruption, exploitation, injustice and egregious violations of innocence.

“We will systematically bring those transparently and openly first of all working with the survivors where they are still alive and then seeing what they want,” Archbishop Justin says. “The rule is survivors come first, not our own interests and however important the person was, however distinguished, however well known, survivors come first.”

This is the essential compassionate heart of the man: this Archbishop of Canterbury is not sitting in his palace meditating upon Aquinas, aloof, callous or indifferent: he meets regularly with real people – the victims of abuse. He gives them a coffee, listens to their stories, and weeps. He isn’t concerned with institutional façades or appearances of holy propriety: for him, the sufferers come first. He will shine a light into their childhood darkness, and they will see justice.

The Church’s failure to protect children from paedophiles is perhaps the most egregious failure and moral corrosion. Children have a special place in God’s heart: But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. To molest their consciences and rape their innocence is an unutterable evil. As the Archbishop says: “When you abuse a child or an adult you mark them for the rest of their lives.” You only have to hear a single account of the months of nightmares and years of loneliness, self-loathing and emotional dysfunction to appreciate that to abuse a child is to inflict a hellish, almost unforgivable agony. For a priest or some other spiritual authority to pillage their chastity and plunder their purity is not only a moral failure, it is a shameful betrayal of vocation and a stain on the holiness of Christ. The Church is charged with nurturing, loving and the pastoral care of souls. What cold climate must these children must have slept in? What image of a distant, disconnected God must they have harboured? And what kind of haughty, heartless and utterly indifferent institution must their parents have judged the Church of England to be?

We get a clue from the Mail, which tells of a mother whose three sons were abused at a Church of England school:

Marilyn Hawes says she had tried and failed on several occasions to get an apology from the church, before finally getting a response from Welby.

Ms Hawes, a former music teacher who now runs an anti-abuse charity, first wrote to Rowan Williams in 2003 after her sons’ abuser was convicted. The headmaster was sentenced to 15 months in prison.

She wrote: ‘I have been an active church-goer my whole life – 50 years – and for the first time I am doubting, not my faith, but the sincerity, value and integrity of a church community.’

She received a two-paragraph, routine reply from an official, but decided to try to contact the church again after Welby was appointed as archbishop of Canterbury last year.

She wrote that the church community ‘abandoned’ her, saying: ‘I went on to have a nervous breakdown and suicidal thoughts. People would cross the road or exit the Post Office rather than face me. Nobody from the church cared.’

Her sons, now adults, had ‘achieved great things’, she wrote, and had ‘overcome the sexual abuse’.

However, she added, ‘Nobody in any church has shown them any active help.’

Setting aside the depressing fact that this grieving mother “tried and failed on several occasions to get an apology from the church”; setting aside the fact that she wrote to Lambeth Palace, but received “a two-paragraph, routine reply from an official”; setting aside the fact that that this coldness caused her to to doubt “the sincerity, value and integrity of a church community”; setting aside the fact that she felt “abandoned” and “went on to have a nervous breakdown and suicidal thoughts”; and setting aside that “Nobody in any church has shown them any active help”…

No, these things must not be set aside. And while Justin Welby resides at Lambeth Palace, they will no longer be, for they are intrinsic to his mission and central to his vocation. He is not concerned with monistic moral theories or conformity to fragmentations of outmoded tradition. He understands the essence of the cura animarum and the primacy of pastoral care. He combines a priest’s ministry with a bishop’s leadership and a deacon’s heart. In this post-structuralist, postmodern, pluralist context of sexual ambiguity and material supremacy, Archbishop Justin speaks the language of love and forgiveness from the experience of faith. There is in him a charismatic spark, a flame that is mystical but deeply attractive. It resonates a shared harmony and shines a peaceful benediction. You might want to carp, criticise and condemn. He only wants to greet you with a kiss, give you a coffee, wash your feet, and weep.

115 comments:

  1. Like many others, I read this news item yesterday with interest and understanding. It's a huge relief that Justin Welby is willing and able to take a lead and properly investigate the whole abuse issue. I hope and pray that survivors will be helped by this process.

    The PBCC declares that it is a mainstream church so I'm wondering whether Garth Christie will set up a similar Inquiry, overseen by outside auditors, in order that people who have been abused by PBCC members, or who have suffered detriment and harm because of interpersonal separation since the early 1960s, can receive proper attention.

    At the moment, there seems to be no mechanism within the PBCC for investigation and consideration of people's detrimental and harmful experiences at the hands of PBCC members. I know this from personal experience. I recently asked Garth if I could meet him to explain how separation had affected me since the early 1960s. He replied that he knew how I'd been treated, but he made no attempt to meet me or do anything about it. I responded that this was unjust and told him that my husband and I are very sad that it seems he's done nothing to deal with our situation.

    For more than fifty years the Taylor/Symington/Hales Exclusive Brethren/PBCC have behaved as if former and non-Brethren people are not worth knowing. They have refused even to share a cup of tea with a non-Brethren person because they've followed the teaching of James Taylor Jnr that they would be "contaminated" by such a contact. As in the Anglican church, there have been reports of sexual abuse within this Exclusive Brethren group. It is long overdue for all this to be acknowledged and for care to be offered to those who have suffered in any way because of sexual abuse or separation.

    I wonder whether Garth Christie ever weeps because of the damage and loss that he and his brethren have imposed on others?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Joan - Why do you always complain and blame the PBCC? Are you not an adult? Give yourself a break and do sonething worthwhile with the time left. We have today, but do not know about tomorrow.


      Delete
    2. Don't get the title of the blog??
      What is the difference between C of E and PBCC?
      1 Both are mainstream
      2 Both are Christian
      3 Both give to Charity
      4 Both have services on a Sunday
      5 Both have Christ as their central focus
      6 Both say - All are welcome
      7 Both reject homosexual behaviour
      (See what the bible says about this)
      8 Both practise compassion
      9 Both pay their taxes
      10 Both enjoy knocking back a whisky or two.

      Delete
    3. Anon 8th Nov 13:57

      Your post is a deliberate wilful attempt to inflame, goad & deceive, because it is full of lies, misinformation, half truths & deliberate spin

      Your point 1
      The PBCC EB practice the following which shows they are neither mainstream Christians nor are they anything like the C of E

      - refusing to eat or drink with any other Christian
      - refusing to eat or drink with any not “in” the group
      - refusing to worship or fellowship or have communion with any other Christian
      - refusing to allow members to join another Christian Church without penalties
      - refuse to accept other Christians as biblically instructed
      - allow babes in arms to take the communion elements, no confession of faith required
      - separate from neighbours
      - do not engage in evangelical work especially with other Christians
      - separate family and husband and wife if a person chooses to leave the group
      - denigrate, belittle, condescend towards all outside the grp, even all other Christians
      - disobey Apostle Pauls teachings of appointment & qualification of elders, pastors
      - complete totally physical separation from any Christian not in the group
      - have previous leaders who have questioned the Trinity (a core Christian doctrine)
      - refuse to allow marriage to other Christians outside the group
      - are taught that the group is superior to all other Christians
      - are taught that an alcoholic womaniser former leader JT Junior is a “pure man”
      - are taught that the Holy Spirit is restricted to just within “their group”
      - separate totally from the Body of Christ (which is ALL other Christians)

      This list of practices shows the PBCC EB are NOT mainstream at all, your claim is a lie, it also shows PBCC EB are NOT like the C of E, that assertion is also a lie

      Your Point 2
      The PBCC EB practices in the above list are NOT Christian as they cant be justified from Gods Word the Bible. Those practices are all an abuse, disobedience or rejection of Gods Commandments.

      Furthermore, PBCC EB teach that members should “have an utter hatred of the world” & if members leave “they cant be Christians” & when speaking to those outside the PBCC EB members are told they will “have a sense of defilement” !!

      That means if PBCC EB members come into contact with C of E then PBCC EB will have a sense of “defilement”, because PBCC EB teaching is that, ALL outside the PBCC EB are “in the world”, “not fit to be at the Lords Table” or “eat or drink with” !

      These things are Not Christian nor like the C of E

      Your Point 3
      That is a half truth. Until 2012 PBCC EB did not give to charity on a corporate basis. In fact James Taylor Junior a previous leader stated “do not give to charity” and “all giving is only for the assembly” meaning just themselves

      These things are Not Christian nor like the C of E

      4 Both have services on a Sunday
      - A half truth. C of E welcome all to all services, PBCC EB do not.

      5 Both have Christ as their central focus
      - No, PBCC EB follow teachings of men from the “fathers of the recovery” & obey everything the Universal Leaders or MOG’s say or do, even if it contradicts scripture

      6 Both say - All are welcome
      - See point 4

      7 Both reject homosexual behaviour
      - A half truth, C of E allow gay clergy & allow members to be gay, PBCC EB do not allow either

      8 Both practise compassion
      - No, see the list from Your Point 1, non of that is practicing compassion is it ?

      9 Both pay their taxes
      - possibly

      10 Both enjoy knocking back a whisky or two
      - No leader of the C of E has been a confirmed alcoholic as far as I know, yet PBCC EB have had alcoholic leaders. PBCC EB are taught that whisky is a holy spirit & prohibition is not allowed

      Anon 8th Nov 13:57
      To help you understand, the title of the blog refers to the differences in approach of C of E and PBCC EB of dealing with Harm & Detriment.

      PBCC EB deny, obfuscate, intimidate, try to silence, refuse to accept responsibility

      C of E recognise wrong & try to put it right, they accept responsibility and are not in denial & treat victims with respect

      Delete
    4. What 5 things does Rev has in common with a Moth?

      1 Both tend to be dull (Read Rev's Rambling posts..Yawn yawn)

      2 Both are burnt up
      (A moth to a flame and
      Rev in the Lake of Fire)

      3 Both fly (Rev flies off the handle)

      4 Both make holes
      (A moth eats a hole and
      Rev digs one for himself)

      5 Both keep busy
      (A moth lays lots of eggs and Rev is actively doing the Devil's work)

      Delete
    5. Make it 6 ;)
      Both want darkness (A moth mostly comes out at night and Rev's soul is dark too)

      Delete
    6. What 5 things does BDH have in common with Satan?

      1 Satan steals your heart away from Christ, so does BDH.

      2 Satan is the great deceiver, BDH has learned from the master.

      3 Satan's pride caused his downfall. Pride will bring BDH down.

      4 Satan is the great tempter. The temptation of riches offered by BDH's commercialisation of the church appears to have beguiled his followers.

      5 Satan takes away your happiness and freedom, BDH takes your money as well , the love of which is the root of all evil. The EB told us themselves that the world of IT leads to the Man of Sin, before wholeheartedly embracing it themselves, mainly for financial gain.

      Oh, and like Anon 23:12, I'll throw in another one. Satan is the prince of the air, BDH in his private jet thinks he is.

      Delete
    7. 9 November 2014 22:56 and 23:12

      From respondents who claim to be from a Bible-believing church your wanton disregard for the Bible is appalling:

      2 Timothy 3:16 Darby Translation

      16 Every scripture [is] divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

      Yet, you wantonly disregard Brother Rev's gentle admonition from the word of God saying God's word is boring and personally attack the messenger too.

      Maybe that's how PBCC priests operate and you're copying that approach, but it's not how a mainstream church works. Please debate the evidence from the Bible, challenge it with other references from the Bible, make a constructive argument, but please do not dismiss God's word out of hand.

      Delete
    8. I don’t understand the logic or sensibility of the anon poster above at 22:56 & 23:12

      How is it possible for Rev to be ‘doing the Devil's work’ when his post is truthful and factual?

      You obviously don’t know much about your natural environment either, because ‘moths’ certainly aren’t ‘dull’, with over 2,500 species in the UK, with a wide variety of colours, shapes and sizes, and most don’t make ‘holes’. Please research the natural environment (which God created), instead of showing such ignorance.

      Is it the same kind of ignorance about the Church of England that leads you to dismiss the factual detail by Rev?

      Or is it that you just don’t like truth, especially truth describing your own dark sect with its dark practices which you desperately try to hide ?

      Delete
  2. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268926/I-raped-leader-Exclusive-Brethren-Shock-testimony-man-alleges-abused-child-Big-Jim-Taylor-rocks-churchs-claim-charitable-status.html

    Alan Robertson, 50, pictured, a father of two, has revealed he was sexually assaulted by the head of the controversial Exclusive Brethren.

    The response from the Hales Exclusive Brethren (PBCC):

    Last night, a lawyer speaking on behalf of the Exclusive Brethren said the church had no concerns about Mr Robertson giving evidence at the tribunal as they were confident that he would be proved to be a liar.

    The lawyer said: ‘Mr Robertson’s allegations have already been proved to be false and our clients are advised by those close to him that he is mentally unstable.’


    Meanwhile the C of E (A mainstream church) "Archbishop Justin says. “The rule is survivors come first, not our own interests and however important the person was, however distinguished, however well known, survivors come first.”

    ReplyDelete
  3. I share your concerns, Joan. I recently presented Garth Christie, Bruce Hazell and Graham Reiner with a comprehensive list of the harm and detriment I feel that I suffered throughout my life due to the doctrines of the recently renamed Plymouth Brethren Christian Church ( Taylor/Symington/Hales Exclusive Brethren).

    After initially offering to meet with me via their lawyers, the offer was withdrawn when I suggested that the facts I submitted to them were corroborated with my current PBCC sister. The 'excuse' was that I had earlier 'spurned my family's advances'.

    This was an odd excuse to use, as during that contact my sister admitted to me in writing that 'she had tried to sort out my problems, but had been unsuccessful' . I am at a loss as to know who I should turn to now.

    It seems that the PBCC are quite willing to play fast and loose, believing that their issues with the Charity Commission have been fully resolved.

    As I don't know where my EB sisters live at the moment, I asked Garth, Bruce and Graham if they could furnish me with their contact details, but to date have heard nothing.

    I don't see any change in the PBCC's position since the Charity Commission's findings earlier this year. In my recent experience and opinion, the PBCC are clearly breaching their Deed of Variation agreement to treat people openly, honestly, fairly and with compassion and as such, should have their Charitable Status withdrawn.

    Mark R Elliott

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    Replies
    1. Mark, you say... "It seems that the PBCC are quite willing to play fast and loose, believing that their issues with the Charity Commission have been fully resolved."

      I would suggest that you consider documenting all these communications and send them to the CC. Your experience is not isolated; many others have commented similarly You could consider complaining to the CC that the PBCC are not complying with the DoV or FiP documents. That is what I will do and I have quite a bit to show them already.

      Abbey U Sivchirch

      Delete
    2. Thank you Abbey. My MP has already come to see me at my home and is taking matters up with the Charity Commission directly. I understand that many MP's are rather upset with the way they were endlessly lobbied, if not misled by members of the PBCC over the Preston Down Trust issue.

      I would encourage others to do the same, sooner rather than later.

      Mark R Elliott

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    3. A few topics below this I believe you will see an independent way of compiling a record of EB/PBCC breaches of their own signed agreement with the CC.

      Delete
  4. It's now almost impossible for institutions and their leaders in the UK to get away with blaming the victim. It's proving to be a hard lesson for some organisations, but gradually it's sinking in that when someone complains of abuse or ill treatment their case should be properly investigated and they should not automatically be traduced. Transferring blame and calling people 'opposers' or 'disaffected' won't wash any more.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I agree; these few months are vital. If you feel you are being "fobbed off", it is important to see your MP, or anyone else who may be able to help, and/or get all your documentation into the CC, preferably before the end of this year. Documentation might include copies of the correspondence to date, witness references and so on. It
    does not matter how long ago you were abused, damaged or badly treated. The EB(PBCC) are keen to make some matters part of remote history and not worthy of recognition; but, as in the case of child abuse, justice has a long arm.

    ReplyDelete
  6. One cannot compare between churches to find an acceptable standard.
    The PBCC is something really unique and set apart from all that marks the world.

    I think we must not speak ill of these people and instead work with them to halt the decline of society. Joan is wrong again of course.
    In fact, most of the comments on this blog are wrong and against what is right and good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. PBCC something unique? Your leaders must have been lying then when they said it was a mainstream church on the lines of The Church of England! Which of course is completely untrue - fortunately NO mainstream church goes in for smashing up families, causing suicides, and so on and so on. "Right and good" you say! Well if that's right and good, what on earth would be evil? By the way, why do you persist in using the fraudulent term PBCC? You are the EB who separated from the Plymouth Brethren way back in the 19th century. The Plymouth Brethren still exist - and in considerably greater numbers than the EB I might say. So why do you persist in using their name when you have no connection with the Plymouth Brethren at all?

      Delete
    2. Absolutely 100% correct. The PBCC is more twisted and evil than any other cult and so is something really unique.

      And yes, if we can work with them and help them escape from this suffocating cult, then that will be another step towards halting the decline of society.

      Comments against detriment and harm (kidnapping, family splitting, alcoholism, suicide) are not against what is right and good.

      RLS

      Delete
  7. Is the PBCC a church, or is it a business empire masquerading as a church?

    No, the PBCC is not unique. It fits the mould of many cookie-cutter cults.

    No, they are not set apart from the marks of the world, they're seen as worldly, lovers of money, abusers of alcohol, and more besides.

    Joan's analysis and comments are honest and real.

    And, yes, your comments on this blog are wrong and against what's right.

    ReplyDelete
  8. One cannot compare between churches to find an acceptable standard.
    The PBCC is something really unique and set apart from all that marks the world.

    I think we must not speak ill of these people and instead work with them to halt the decline of society. Joan is wrong again of course.
    In fact, most of the comments on this blog are wrong and against what is right and good.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anon 19:19 Have to admit the churches are declining and society too, but is this going to be a continuing trend until the end?
    However, we can be assured that JC is in control over the nations and can do as he will.
    We do not need to fear, but cling to his finished work on the cross.
    Joan, l think you have to stop feeling sorry for yourself just accept the Peeb's convictions about separation.

    I beg to differ to Abbey's claim the Peebs are accountable to or must comply with the cc. They are not.
    Rather they are accountable to God only and to be rightious before men.

    Edith N Dashwood

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    Replies
    1. Why do you keep harping on about 'accountable to God' when those of us with relatives trapped in the EB only ever hear about them being accountable to Bruce Hales? "Beloved Mr Hales says ..." Why is Mr Hales never mentioned on your postings here? Why do you live by Bruce in your daily lives but then pretend you acknowledge God when you contribute to this website? Which is it? Bruce Hales is 'da man' and God is now insignificant, or God still heads things up and Bruce is just an unpleasant money-grabbing con man? Which is it? Come on, speak up people!

      Delete
    2. Are churches in decline? Maybe is some places and in some styles, others like the one I belong to are currently seeing 30% growth. We are not unique. The church is growing amazingly fast in the Third World, China etc. So, no, the church is not in decline.

      And once again the lack of Biblical knowledge of Hales Exclusive Brethren posters is appalling. Rom 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

      So, yes, clearly the 'Peebs' are accountable to God including via His appointed authorities. And, yes, they will have to comply with the cc. Or are they going to prove themselves to be liars, signing up for/agreeing to do one thing but deceitfully not doing it?

      Wake up: Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

      Delete
    3. Why won't the recently-reformed compassionate, caring, charitable PBCC in the guise of Garth Christie, Bruce Hazell and Graham Reiner, tell me where my own sisters live?

      I got a response from their lawyers in 7 minutes the other day on another issue!

      Mark R Elliott

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    4. Dear Ms Dashwood

      That's fine, but do not expect your cult to be funded by the state. From all accounts, the EB(PBCC) are not very righteous before men. it must be a perilous position in one's accountability to God to know that you have actively or passively supported the destruction of families, individuals and children through lawless enforcement and abuse. God is not mocked by hypocrites and deceivers. You will sow a bitter harvest; or, to put it more succinctly, in the manner of an EB (PBCC) commentator - Wake up and smell the coffee!

      Delete
    5. If the PBCC want to practice their version of separation then of course that is up to them. But they have agreed otherwise with the UK Charity Commission in order to retain their charitable status.

      Delete
    6. Edith N Dashwood
      I note you've not replied to the above, so I take it that you can't and you know that the above 5 replies are actually the real truth. Thank you

      You say 'Rather they are accountable to God only and to be rightious before men'
      My experience of the EB is that they are very keen on the word 'righteousness' but always to do with money only. As soon as you broaden it to 'doing what is right' they don't want to know
      I have direct experience in the last 2 months of them putting bruce hales ahead of The Lord, and putting their system and ministry ahead of the Holy Scriptures. When this was politely pointed out, contact was severed

      Edith, can you please explain how they are accountable to God, when these poor trapped souls in practice feel accountable to BDH and his system

      Mike

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  10. Larry - I think it's actually you who is being "Untrue" here -
    The word "Unique" can also be defined as Special and there IS something very special and a beautiful simplicity about these people. Respect it.
    Having a cynical attitude doesn't solve anything by the way.
    The PBCC seem to be a jolly nice lot and as far as we outsiders know, they do run their affairs according to the laws which govern the country.

    Additionally and from what I understand, they actually go beyond what is required when it comes to paying taxes. They have also become increasingly involved in donating to people in need. I have found them to be really charming and sincere.

    Furthermore, I personally know they tend to pay their workers above the normal rate. That is good don't you think Larry? Do you have a problem with that?
    Mark E - Be patient and respectful and you will find these people will help you solve problems and attend to your troubles and concerns.
    And in case any of you are not aware, the PBCC have always supported and respect Christian governments and rulers. A well researched and historical fact.

    Living in a detached house, earning a good salary and being supporters of the traditional family are not a crime and in fact we badly need that kind of force for good in our country. We are no different in wanting to provide for and protect our families. We can only admit these people have got a lot of things right.
    The Love of money is obviously wrong and the bible tells us so, but it's certainly not wrong to earn plenty to live on, invest for the future and to use wisely.
    God is so obviously prospering these people and blessing them.

    They are also perfectly entitled and at liberty to run their own affairs and way of life.
    We are thankfully still a democracy and have a Christian government.
    At least we trust this may continue for as long as possible.
    Now, if you feel that Pakistan, Syria or North Korea is peaceful, Christian and democratic, go hop on a plane and live there.

    Lastly, the essential role or function of the CC is to ensure charities are fit for purpose and not to interfere with matters of Christian conscience or church affairs.

    Jim



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why the hell does this country need people living in detached houses????

      Delete
    2. 'seem to be ', 'as far as we outsiders know,' 'from what I understand', ' they tend to ',

      Jim. You surmise much, but actually know very little. One of their members recently killed a man by his dangerous driving, ran away from the accident scene, tried to blame someone else, pleaded not guilty in court and has spent the last couple of years in prison.

      Try peddling your dross to that poor man's widow.

      It is testament to Laurie's excellent blog that 'outsiders' immediately know where to go to show their support for the recently rebranded PBCC!

      Grow up Jim, you're fooling nobody.

      Delete
    3. Jim: Who is the 'Larry' you refer to? I don't see a poster with that name.

      You've seen my name though. Now I don't want to rehearse the same arguments over again. The Bible does not change. Playing games with it is not a clever move. I'll just end with the Galatians quote again: Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

      Delete
    4. Correct Jim - "the essential role of the CC is to ensure charities are fit for purpose and not to interfere with matters of Christian conscience or chaurc affairs"
      The Charities Commission investigated the Preston Down Trust because they did not believe they were truly charitable. Although they found evidence of detiment and harm in the Trust's practices they agreed, after the Trust signed up to a deed stipulating certain things they would and would not do, that charitable status could be granted. Those requirement were necessary to be charitable; they did not interfere with matters of Christian conscience. If they had the PBCC would not have signed up to them would they.
      Surely these "beautifully simplistic people" wouldn't agree to one thing and do another just for money?


      Ricardo

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    5. Can it get any more bizarre than an 'outsider' advising me to be patient and respectful with the PBCC? IMHO waiting 25 years for justice is quite patient and writing courteously to their leaders is respectful.

      However, their refusal to even tell me where my sisters live, give me their phone numbers or contact email addresses is in direct contradiction of their agreement to treat ex-members fairly and as such has again been reported to my local MP.

      It would appear that the death of a complainer is a problem solved for this most devious of organisations. Funny how they come and batter your door down to get some things right before the supper, yet other more serious issues are left to fester for years and years. This arrogant attitude does not endear them to anybody and never will.

      Years of snow clearing, sandbag hut building and fire engine chasing can never atone for historical harm, detriment and abuse of the most serious nature.

      Mark R Elliott

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    6. Mark - Justice is found in Jesus.
      He will not leave you in want.
      His death on the cross was the justice we deserved, but he stood in our stead.
      When we start to consider what that meant, a different attitude begins to emerge. Instead of seeking revenge, there is an amazing sense of preace within. If you have peace with God, you will be able to live in harmony with all men.
      When we trust in him, he does not fail to pour in comfort and make us whole.
      With Jesus we have no regrets and he remembers not our sins. What utter grace! I sincerely wish to encourage you to come over to God's side and turn your back on persons here who don't have your best interests at heart. Their hearts have been hardened and they are swift to cast a net and stumble many.

      I speak from personal experience and trust you will also come to Christ and find him ready to save you.

      Jim

      Delete
    7. With all due respect, Jim. Jesus' death on the cross does not automatically absolve persons guilty of criminal behaviour. It is this type of mindset that worries me most about the PBCC. They appear to believe that criminal activity can be covered and forgiven by 'priests', when in actual fact the police should be called.

      I was recently sickened to hear of a PBCC member witnessed killing a man by his dangerous driving, pleading not guilty in court. Was he thinking he was covered by Jesus' blood and was therefore innocent?
      '

      Delete
    8. 23:31
      God knows whether that person was guilty or not. We were not driving. That Peeb has to respond to his own conscience.
      We also don't know what he was thinking so your assumption carries no weight.
      Let God judge. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right. We go by facts and by scripture, not by the media or gossip.

      Jim

      Delete
    9. Jim in 4th Nov 21:38 says -

      “If you have peace with God, you will be able to live in harmony with all men”

      So that’s what’s wrong with PBCC EB then !

      PBCC EB –

      - refuse to eat or drink or worship or fellowship or have communion with any other Christian

      - refuse to eat or drink with any outsiders

      - separate from and cut persons off if they leave to go to another Christian Church

      - intimidate, take litigation, involve lawyers, go to court, to divide families & seek to silence those who speak out

      - Offer bribes (which failed), to stop tv programs exposing PBCC EB being aired

      - In teaching declare that members should “have an utter hatred of the world” & if members leave “they cant be Christians” & when speaking to those outside the PBCC EB members are told they will “have a sense of defilement” !!

      - there is much more that could be noted

      Jim,

      These things starkly show there is NO “harmony with all men” from the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church PBCC (Exclusive Brethren) regime. These things show an organisation & membership absolutely unable to “to live in harmony with all men”

      According to what “Jim” says “If you have peace with God, you will be able to live in harmony with all men” therefore PBCC EB cant have “peace with God” because they dont live in harmony with all men as the above notes show !

      Furthermore, the UK Charity Commission found in Jan 2014 that the PBCC EB created "Harm" & "Detriment" to its members, those who leave & the wider society - Thats not "living in harmony with all men" is it, Jim, ?

      Delete
    10. Jim, 4th Nov 21:38

      You say -
      “I sincerely wish to encourage you to come over to God's side and turn your back on persons here who don't have your best interests at heart..”

      Jim, is Gods side found only in the PBCC EB ? or can Gods side be found outside the PBCC EB ?

      Jim, how do you know Mark E is not already a Christian ?

      Jim, do you think “coming over to Gods side” (your words) means the harm & detriment suffered by Mark E at the hand of the PBCC EB will be resolved ?

      Jim, you imply much and the impression when reading your comments is that all the responsibility is with Mark E – am I correct ?

      Jim, do you think those persons & the organisation who caused harm & detriment to Mark E ( and many many others) have responsibility too ?

      Jim, do you believe what the bible teaches regarding the following – ?

      Seeking justice
      Correcting oppression
      Rebuking the wicked
      Justice to the fatherless
      Pleading the widows cause
      Rendering true judgments
      Keep justice do righteousness
      Hold fast to justice
      Subjection to authorities

      Jim, do you believe that God works through persons ?

      Delete
    11. Jim

      You say "God knows whether that person was guilty or not". So did the judge. That's why he got locked away.

      Delete
    12. Correction 15:51
      We uphold the laws being in the hands of judges, ,but not the jury.

      A jury has no place in a court of law and is not recognised by God.
      However, error has corrupted the administration of our land.
      We fear God rather than man.

      Defective sentencing and verdicts are very often the result of a judge not having absolute authority to apply the full process of law.

      Shall not the judge of all the earth do right. Scripture may not be popular now, but God is going to have this restored when he comes on clouds of glory.
      There will be a new heaven and a new earth. The saints will rule over the earth in rightiousness and every knee will bow.

      Bow the knee today and come to know Jesus as Lord and Supreme Judge over all.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

      Delete
    13. Hello Leo/Jim

      As always let me ask you for evidence to back up your assertions. Where does the Bible suggest that a Jury is not recognised by God. If it's one of your Cult Leaders/'Man of God'/'s word, then sorry, but it's of no account. It's the vain ramblings of man, not the word of God.

      As for the rest of your post ... look in a mirror!

      Delete
    14. Leo
      Your posting would seem to corroborate one of the more ridiculous statements by an EB leader - The brethren are right even when they are wrong!! Have you ever analysed the stupidity of such a statement?
      Sadly the EB at present bow the knee to a capricious fallible man rather than the One we will all (including arrogant EBs) bow the knee to in a future day.

      Delete
    15. I did post this earlier but it didnt work

      Jim, 4th Nov 21:38

      You say -
      “I sincerely wish to encourage you to come over to God's side and turn your back on persons here who don't have your best interests at heart..”

      Jim, or LJO is Gods side found only in the PBCC EB ? or can Gods side be found outside the PBCC EB ?

      Jim, or LJO how do you know Mark E is not already a Christian ?

      Jim, or LJO do you think “coming over to Gods side” (your words) means the harm & detriment suffered by Mark E at the hand of the PBCC EB will be resolved ?

      Jim, or LJO you imply much and the impression when reading your comments is that all the responsibility is with Mark E – am I correct ?

      Jim, or LJO do you think those persons & the organisation who caused harm & detriment to Mark E ( and many many others) have responsibility too ?

      Jim, or LJO do you believe what the bible teaches regarding the following – ?

      Seeking justice
      Correcting oppression
      Rebuking the wicked
      Justice to the fatherless
      Pleading the widows cause
      Rendering true judgments
      Keep justice do righteousness
      Hold fast to justice
      Subjection to authorities

      Jim, or LJO do you believe that God works through persons ?

      Delete
    16. Jim's advice to me includes the following gem 'come over to God's side and turn your back on persons here who don't have your best interests at heart'

      It was the EB's deceitfulness, hypocrisy and lies which led me to quit the cult. The lack of understanding and compassion from close EB family members regarding my dear wife's epilepsy was no incentive to stay either. At the time I was also being pressured into buying a detached house, which I simply couldn't afford.

      In desperation before leaving, I visited a very senior local brother (Christopher Bedford) and told him of my concerns which he dismissed as bing 'water under the bridge', but strangely that very same evening the EB (Jack Badder and Christopher Bedford) attempted to re-instate my father into fellowship. After telling the 400 assembled that 'the Lord had come in for our brother', they went to his house to tell him the 'good news' that he had been recovered. It transpired that he hadn't been seen for months and he roundly told them where they could go!

      That, for me was the last straw. One final act of lying and false witness.

      I am a Christian, Jim. Please do not try and take that away from me. It's just a pity that many other EB's seemingly weren't and sadly still aren't. Their actions give them away.

      Mark R Elliott

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    17. Mark - l will investigate what you have said. Be assured that God sees all we have gone through.
      Just be restful in the presence of God and lay out your concerns before him, one by one. Nobody can take your faith and the Lord knows those that are his.

      I would like to help you.

      Jim

      Delete
    18. I am most interested to see how 'Jim', a self-confessed non-member of the PBCC will 'investigate' my statements. I have already asked Garth Christie, Graham Reiner and Bruce Hazell to do this, but they have declined, according to their lawyer. 'Jim' possibly carries more weight?

      Maybe 'Jim' could tell me where my PBCC sister lives too? The one (of two) who obeyed the 'review' directives of 2002/03. I've often wondered why the other one never contacted me? Disobeying BDH? Surely not?

      It would be really useful if, like me, Jim could post his real name.

      Mark R Elliott

      Delete
    19. Any news yet, Jim?

      Mark R Elliott

      Delete
    20. I thought the same - a non-member who can somehow investigate EB injustices. Better maintain a friendship with him, sounds like he's going to be useful. Perhaps he can even lend us a set of the new photo books and Mark can see for himself where his sister is living.

      RLS

      Delete
    21. A quick update on my sister. Back channel I have been told she lives in Shinfield, near Reading. At least that narrows it down a bit. I might ask the Thames Valley Police if they can help me find her. I trust them more with my address than I do the PBCC. We moved from a previous address because they turned up uninvited a full 10 years after we left the EB and precipitated my wife's breakdown. I cannot risk that happening again, hence another house move earlier this year.

      Mark R Elliott

      Delete
    22. No word back from Jim yet?

      I have noticed in my dealings with the PBCC that initial acknowledgement of complaint is soon followed by dismissive indifference. I believe it is a tactic designed to break the spirit and determination of the complainant. As I celebrate the Silver Anniversary of my leaving, I continue to seek justice and freedom for those trapped, frightened or still beguiled by a brutal, heartless leadership.

      The PBCC really should not have come knocking on my door 10 years after we left. I do not 'belong in the assembly' and frankly never felt as if I did. Had they accepted that, I might not have been as anti-PBCC as I am.

      So far no apologies, no admission of wrong doing, harm or detriment and no compensation. So much for the Deed of Variation they signed.

      Mark R Elliott

      Delete
  11. Jim
    Perhaps you could tell us the evidence upon which you base your assertion that the PBCC/EB are unique/special, charming and sincere and a jolly nice lot.
    For example have you been able to enjoy hospitality in their homes, something Christians are happy to extend to other believers, irrespective of their denomination.
    I would not call another Christian an "outsider" and it is language such as this that to my mind casts some doubt on your credentials as an "outsider" yourself.
    Certainly the Exclusive Brethren have every right to run their own affairs and way of life. However I do not agree that they have the right to do so when their rules and regulations impinge on the rights of others including members of their own families whom they treat like lepers simply because they have chosen for one reason or another to leave the EB fellowship.
    It is a fact that the Charities Commission has expressed serious concerns about the impact that the physical separation imposed by the EB upon those who leave their fellowship has upon family members and others. It is my understanding that the EB have signed up to separation being moral rather than physical. Where is the evidence that they have put this into practice.
    Believe me it is is not "jolly nice" to be ostracised by your wife, husband, father, mother, son, daughter. Imagine as was our experience being told of the death of you mother 3 weeks after the event.
    I have neither seen nor heard of any significant change in the behaviour of the EB since the Charity Commission issued its ruling and it would seem inevitable that the CC will revisit its earlier decision.
    The Charity Commission has a responsibility to Parliament and to taxpayers other than the EB to ensure that that organisation is indeed "fit for purpose" i.e. there is public benefit and not detriment and harm as a consequence of its activities.
    Lastly I would suggest choosing your pseudonym more carefully - Jim was the first name of both Taylor and Symington, perhaps the two men who are most responsible for the introduction of the extremely harsh and cruel practices that have resulted in the justifiable criticism that the Exclusive Brethren find themselves facing today.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Gal: An assertion has not been made.
      Rather it's an observation and an undeniable fact the Peebs are set apart from the rest.

      Being different is not a crime.

      Delete
  12. It's a slur on everyone who isn't a Hales EB person to say that the PBCC separates from them 'morally'. This implies that all nonEB people are immoral.

    If the PBCC wants to be truthful they should say instead "We separate ecclesiastically".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon 1 November 07:46

      PBCC EB separate from ALL not in their group, whether that be persons who are immoral, or non Christians, those committing biblical sin, or those who are genuine Christians following the Bible, or those who belong to false religions, or those living a decent life maintaining moral standards, or those who are poor, or those who are rich, or those who avoid drink, drugs, or those who are of whatever standard, it does not matter, if persons are not “in” the PBCC EB group then those persons are separated from. There is absolutely no spiritual discernment or difference applied, separation is maintained simply because persons are not “in” the group

      That separation takes the form of not associating with, not eating or drinking with, not socialising with, not worshipping or fellowshipping with, not taking communion with, not fully attending weddings/funerals, not going on holiday with, not maintaining normal family relations with, etc etc, ANY who are not “in” the group

      Now,

      That type of separation is NOT moral, because it makes no distinction between those who are moral or immoral or those who are genuine Christians because separation applies to ANY who are not “in” the group.

      That type of “separation” is absolutely NOT described in the Bible which is the Word of God which the Christian faith follows, it is NOT from a Christian conscience as its not Christian because its not in the Bible. It is NOT moral separation as taught in the Bible so it is not Christian moral separation

      Additionally,

      The type of separation described is NOT ecclesiastical separation. There are absolutely NO distinctions made between ecclesiastical positions or between different Christian Churches, the PBCC EB teaches that ALL ecclesiastical positions outside of their own group are wrong.

      For example, genuine Christian Churches would separate ecclesiastically from the Jehovah’s Witness or from the Mormons, because they teach a false gospel, yet would maintain Christian links with other Christian Churches because they follow the Bible. That is spiritual discernment and true ecclesiastical separation in action.

      Yet, the PBCC EB practice ecclesiastical separation from ALL Christian Churches no matter whether they are genuine Christian Churches or not. That is utterly the opposite of what Gods Word teaches in the Bible. It rips up the Biblical teaching about the One Body, denigrates and treats as lower class all other Christians saved by the blood of Christ, belittles the work of God in all others outside the group, repeats the sin of sectarianism warned about so clearly in the Bible and ignores the Biblical teaching how to accept other Christians

      It is NOT ecclesiastical separation as taught in the Bible, so it is not Christian

      Delete
  13. 07:46 - What Slur? Such a comment is not intelligent!

    There are aspects of life which call for various degrees or types of separation.
    Race, sex, ethnic groups, class, faith, moral standards and Christian conscience etc are all part of the differences and diversity of this life -

    Moreover, it is a FACT of life and in no way means another human being is somehow worth less or more. All of us can show a kindly spirit and lend a helping hand, no matter where people come from or who they are.
    The Peebs, as with any group, thus are very much involved in reaching out to people, but have the perfect right to preserve their way of life. We all have that right.
    Our country apparently celebrates freedom of choice and expression. Do you?

    Creation also celebrates diversity, but it is sin that has broken down the boundaries he set. Giving and sharing does not break down diversity or differences, but rather strengthens the boundaries God intended.

    For a simple example-
    If I were to help my neighbour by giving him/her a lift to work or doing a food shop to help out, it is an act of love, but separation of faith or class is still there and respected between us. Love is a uniting force and improves understanding between peoples, but it is also the individual matter of faith, choice and conviction which is to be respected. Love and respect go together.

    It doesn't matter if political correctness is the trend these days, what matters is the truth and freedom of Christian conscience. Political correctness is not of God and does not celebrate or respect Christianity. In fact, it resolves nothing and denies the truth or reality of diversity. God is real, demands truth and accepts nothing less than his way. Christ said, I am the way, the truth and the life.
    That goes against the spirit of this world.

    There is a false notion that God accepts anything, any old how, but it is not true.
    In that sense then, the love of God IS free, but NOT a free for all.
    We cannot claim to know Christ, if we reject God's commandments.
    Every knee will bow to him and will have to confess him as Lord over all.
    His ways are not ours and his standard is set out for us to obey.
    If we reject his standard, then there is decline.

    Indeed, Peebs are different and thank God they are, but then don't we all have differences? As an outsider, I personally respect, love and celebrate their difference, albeit I am separate / apart / different from them. Difference is not wrong, it's an interesting and truthful FACT of life.

    What a boring world if we all were the same.


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    Replies
    1. Dear Anon 1 November 11:10

      You will find the answer to your first question and more detail in post Anon 1 November 11:18 which clearly sets out the “slur”

      As for the rest of your comments Anon 1 November 11:10 I will remind you that you the PBCC EB claimed to the UK Parliament and Press in 2012 that you were a “mainstream Christian Church” as such you the PBCC EB are compared to the rest of the “mainstream Christian Church” who do not practice what separation from all other Christians as the PBCC EB do but instead embrace Christians as part of the One Body as instructed by Gods Word in the Bible

      I will however pick up on this comment of yours –

      “We cannot claim to know Christ, if we reject God's commandments”

      The PBCC EB practice the following which are all an abuse, disobedience or rejection of Gods Commandments, so by your own statement that means the PBCC EB “cannot claim to know Christ” !

      - refusing to eat or drink with any other Christian
      - refusing to eat or drink with any not “in” the group
      - refusing to worship or fellowship or have communion with any other Christian
      - refusing to allow members to join another Christian Church without penalties
      - refuse to accept other Christians as biblically instructed
      - allow babes in arms to take the communion elements
      - separate from neighbours
      - do not engage in evangelical work especially with other Christians
      - separate family and husband and wife if a person chooses to leave the group
      - denigrate, belittle, condescend towards all outside the grp, even all other Christians
      - disobey Apostle Pauls teachings of appointment & qualification of elders, pastors
      - complete totally physical separation from any Christian not in the group
      - have previous leaders who have questioned the Trinity (a core Christian doctrine)
      - refuse to allow marriage to other Christians outside the group
      - are taught that the group is superior to all other Christians
      - are taught that an alcoholic womaniser former leader JT Junior is a “pure man”
      - are taught that the Holy Spirit is restricted to just within “their group”
      - are taught that “they” alone are ‘The Assembly’ ‘The Church’ ‘The Body’
      - are taught that if persons leave the group, then they “cant be Christians”
      - misrepresent, deceive, lie, obfuscate, present falsehoods to Governmental Authorities in desperate attempts to secure financial reward
      - etc etc etc

      Dear Anon 1 November 11:10,

      All of the above, and much more besides, are an abuse, disobedience or rejection of Gods Commandments, so by your own statement that means the PBCC EB “cannot claim to know Christ” !

      Delete
    2. 1 Rev are you opposed and bitter against The assembly and body of Christ?
      2 Do you accept there is and can be only one truth and one body of Christ?
      3 Did you know Christ is going to rapture a Pure and spotless bride?
      4 Will you be included or will he say - Depart from me for l never knew you?
      5 Did you know the Lord does not accept
      the world's spirit in the body of Christ.
      6 Have you washed your robes?
      7 May l suggest you read and understand the bible in the context intended.
      We note your rambling tends to be characterised by its lack of context.

      Worth pondering.

      Jim

      Delete
    3. Jim.

      1 To avoid misunderstanding and duplicity please define 'the assembly and the body of Christ'

      2 My understanding is that Rev fully understands this. When you have answered '1' we'll understand if you do.

      3 Yes, of course He is. Will many HEB be in that? They no longer have to publicly declare their faith. Do many have any?

      4 I'm pretty sure that buy the confession of his faith in Jesus in many places and many ways that Rev is certainly included. How abut you friends in the HEB?

      5 So why do the HEB continue in such a money-loving, worldly way?

      6 Point 3.

      7 Jim, please apply this to your self. So far in all your pseudo names I do not recall one response based on the Bible, just vague off centred ramblings. Have you reads the Bible? Have you studied the Bible? Do you still read the Bible? Do you still study the Bible? If so, please apply it in our discussions, else your responses are mere wind and the words of man.

      Delete
    4. Jim, 3 November 15:25

      Q1,

      In so far as “The Assembly” & “One Body of Christ” refers to ALL Christians saved by the blood of Christ & who follow the Word of God, then I could not be opposed to that as I’m a Christian. As such I’m free to worship, fellowship, sit at the Lords Table with & eat & drink with my fellow Christians who form part of The Assembly & One Body of Christ. The Bible also instructs in Romans 15v7 “to accept other Christians as Christ has accepted you”

      However, PBCC EB teach that “The Assembly” & “One Body of Christ” refers just to PBCC EB and all who are outside the group are not part of it. PBCC EB refuse to worship, fellowship, sit at the Lords Table with, or eat or drink with any other Christians outside of PBCC EB. That, I am certainly opposed to as it’s contradiction & disobedience of the Word of God, the Bible.

      Jim, your attempts to defend PBCC EB practices are pointless as their practices & teachings condemn “you” !. Let me explain,

      In your 31 Oct 12:38 post signed as Jim, you state - “as far as we outsiders know” “seem to be” “from what I understand” “they tend to”. Therefore, according to PBCC EB teaching you are also ‘Not’ in the assembly as you claim to be an “outsider” ! & not a member of PBCC EB !

      Q2,

      Yes of course, the Bible instructs there is only One Body, which consists of & is formed from ALL Christians. All who profess faith in Christ & live by the Word of God are part of His Body. I suggest you read your Bible to find out (Eph 4, 1 Corinthians 12, etc). The Bible instructs how the One Body of Christ works by using the Human Body analogy, here is an example –

      1 Corinthians 12: 19 But if all were one member, where the body?. But now the members [are] many, and the body one. The eye cannot say to the hand, I have not need of thee; or again, the head to the feet, I have not need of you.

      Yet, PBCC EB cut themselves off from the rest of the Body of Christ (all other Christians), by refusing to worship, fellowship, sit at the Lords Table with, or eat or drink with ANY other Christians. Jim, this is disobeying Gods Word, do you agree ?

      Q3 & 4,

      Yes, of course I do. My faith & the Word of God tells me that Christ will appear again (the 2nd appearing) with loud voice, power & glory for ALL who believe in his shed blood & who follow His Word, the Bible. See Luke 21, Revelation 1, Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, John 3 16-17.

      The bible doesn’t use the word “rapture” & there is nothing “secret” or “quiet” about Christ’s appearing either. The bible doesn’t say PBCC EB are “The” bride of Christ.

      Jim, to be part of the Bride of Christ, His Body, Christians must follow the Word of God the Bible & the commandments therein. The post @ 3 Nov 09:29 starkly shows PBCC EB disobey, abuse & contradict Gods commandments & in your own words Jim “We cannot claim to know Christ, if we reject God's commandments” !!

      You try to use an extract from Matthew 7 v23, here is the full context -

      Matthew 7 v21-23 - “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”

      Jim, the full context from Gods Word the Bible, shows ONLY those who do the “will of my Father which is in heaven” (In other words Gods commandments), will enter into the kingdom of heaven. The post @ 3 Nov 09:29 shows PBCC EB disobey, abuse & contradict Gods commandments, while still claiming to be Christian & saying Lord. That situation is a mirror image of Matthew 7 v21-23 don’t you think, Jim ?

      Q5, 6 & 7 to follow

      Delete
    5. Jim, 3 November 15:25

      Q5

      Jim, I’m interested to know what you mean by the “World’s Spirit”, please can you explain so readers understand what you mean ?

      Just to be clear, the Bible which is the Word of God says that ALL who follow Christ, believe in His shed blood and follow Gods commandments are part of the Body of Christ.

      The Bible does not say anywhere that PBCC EB are “The” body or “The” bride of Christ. The bible does not say anywhere that PBCC EB have exclusive rights over Christianity or salvation. The Bible strongly warns against such sectarian teaching

      If you mean by “The Worlds Spirit” - a love of & drive for money, repeated deception, spiritual abuse, abuse of individuals, harm, detriment, disrespect for the marriage bond, abuse & disrespect & division of family relationships, psychological & emotional abuse, obsession with possessions & large houses, having a culture of heavy alcohol consumption, spreading misinformation to gain financial reward, agreement with immorality, using foul & coarse language, intimidation & bully tactics, evasion of responsibility, denial of accountability, obsession & pandering to personalities, ever changing standards, paranoia & obsession with control, superiority delusions, etc etc, then Jim, all of these things are to be found inside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church known until 2102 as Exclusive Brethren & led by leaders such as James Taylor, Symington, John Hales and now Bruce Hales

      However, if you could clarify what you mean by “The World’s Spirit” that would be helpful ?

      Q6

      Jim, this question has already been answered in my response to Q1, 3 & 4. If by saying “have you washed your robes?” you are quoting from Revelation 22 v14 then lets look at that verse.

      JN Darby version
      14 Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.

      King James Version
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      NIV
      14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city

      Jim, Gods Word is clear, ONLY those that “do his commandments” (in other words wash their robes) may have right to the tree of life. However, as we've seen, the PBCC EB disobey, abuse & contradict Gods commandments, which are found in the Word of God the Bible.

      Jim, do you think such actions & practices from PBCC EB are acceptable ?

      Q7

      Jim, through prayer & the Spirits help I apply the Word of God the Bible in context

      So please can you highlight, with references to blog posts so they can be checked, where I have taken the Bible out of context ?

      Please can you also explain what you mean by “understand the bible in the context intended” ?

      In your opinion what is the “context intended” ?

      How have I not applied it ? (please give blog post references so it can be checked)

      Is the PBCC EB application & context the correct way ?

      Do you know that scripture interprets scripture, which means that a verse can be referenced alongside other verses to get the full intended meaning ?

      Jim, your last sentence in your post at 3 November 15:25 is nothing but a sneering personal attack because you don’t substantiate your accusation with evidence.

      Delete
    6. I did post this before, but it hasn’t appeared

      Jim, 3 November 15:25

      Q5

      Jim, I’m interested to know what you mean by the “World’s Spirit”, please can you explain so readers understand what you mean ?

      Just to be clear, the Bible which is the Word of God says that ALL who follow Christ, believe in His shed blood and follow Gods commandments are part of the Body of Christ.

      The Bible does not say anywhere that PBCC EB are “The” body or “The” bride of Christ. The bible does not say anywhere that PBCC EB have exclusive rights over Christianity or salvation. The Bible strongly warns against such sectarian teaching

      If you mean by “The Worlds Spirit” - a love of & drive for money, repeated deception, spiritual abuse, abuse of individuals, harm, detriment, disrespect for the marriage bond, abuse & disrespect & division of family relationships, psychological & emotional abuse, obsession with possessions & large houses, having a culture of heavy alcohol consumption, spreading misinformation to gain financial reward, agreement with immorality, using foul & coarse language, intimidation & bully tactics, evasion of responsibility, denial of accountability, obsession & pandering to personalities, ever changing standards, paranoia & obsession with control, superiority delusions, etc etc, then Jim, all of these things are to be found inside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church known until 2102 as Exclusive Brethren & led by leaders such as James Taylor, Symington, John Hales and now Bruce Hales

      However, if you could clarify what you mean by “The World’s Spirit” that would be helpful ?

      Q6

      Jim, this question has already been answered in my response to Q1, 3 & 4. If by saying “have you washed your robes?” you are quoting from Revelation 22 v14 then lets look at that verse.

      JN Darby version
      14 Blessed [are] they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.

      King James Version
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      NIV
      14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city

      Jim, Gods Word is clear, ONLY those that “do his commandments” (in other words wash their robes) may have right to the tree of life. However, as we have already seen PBCC EB disobey, abuse & contradict Gods commandments, which are found in the Word of God the Bible. Jim, do you think that is acceptable for PBCC EB ?

      Q7

      Jim, through prayer and the Spirits help I apply the Word of God the Bible in context

      So please can you highlight, with references to blog posts so they can be checked, where I have taken the Bible out of context ?

      Please can you also explain what you mean by “understand the bible in the context intended” ?

      In your opinion what is the “context intended” ?

      How have I not applied it ? (please give blog post references so it can be checked)

      Is the PBCC EB application & context the correct way ?

      Do you know that scripture interprets scripture, which means that a verse can be referenced alongside other verses to get the full intended meaning ?

      Jim, your last sentence in your post at 3 November 15:25 is nothing but a sneering personal attack because you don’t substantiate your accusation with evidence.

      Delete
  14. Dear Jim,

    To impress you further with the PBCC let me tell you about one of their more
    illustrious members - Roy Symington ( son of a previous PBCC MOG). This man is held in high regard among the PBCC and what a wonderful track record he has:
    - divorced ( his ex-wife and family all left the church after he did and none have returned).
    - has a criminal record.
    - left 2 broken homes behind him in North Dakota as a result of adultery.
    - still has unsettled lawsuits against him in North Dakota as a result of crooked business dealings.
    And yes; he was sent to England in recent in recent months to take a special fellowship meeting - I agree with you Jim - the PBCC are great role models!


    ReplyDelete
  15. Could anyone enlighten us regarding Roy Symington's criminal record? I have read he has been in prison - what were the offences of this "force for good" to quote "Jim".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here's a little info: http://laurencemoffitt.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/roy-symington-chum-of-bruce-d-hales-and.html

      Delete
    2. 16:42
      Christ's work was and is sufficient to forgive sin. Not only fogive sin, but he says he will no longer remember them.
      We therefore have no right to accuse others, but rather look at our own hearts before God to see if there be something that needs dealing with.
      Forgiven people don't accuse or have a vindictive spirit. Grace is available today if you avail yourself and repent without attempting to accuse or point the finger at those whom Christ died for.

      Jim.

      Delete
    3. Jim, 3 Nov 15:03

      We,ve had this type of escapism before from PBCC EB,

      Your comment implies its wrong to seek justice, wrong to tell the truth, wrong to expose PBCC EB for who they really are & instead all things will be solved by coming to faith in Christ.

      Jim, do you not know that Christ through His Word, the Bible, teaches persons to seek justice, tell the truth & expose false teaching ?

      Your comment is an excuse straight from the cultists handbook, to try to silence persons speaking to authorities & exposing truth. It is cynical spiritual abuse, as it twists scripture (the Word of God), resulting in damage to the Christian faith

      I am a Christian & Gods Word the Bible instructs me to rebuke, convict & expose false teaching & those who twist His Word (Ephesians 5, Colossians 2, Titus 1, 2 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 2, etc)

      Gods Word teaches forgiveness is through faith in Christ, ‘BUT’ only after the sin is stopped & full repentance is made by the sinner. For PBCC EB this means ceasing harm & detriment & repenting for damage caused.

      However, ‘No’ genuine, truthful repentance has been made, because the sin of harm & detriment ‘Still Continues’ !. Yet, in Romans 6 it says - “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

      What does this mean for PBCC EB,
      They say they are forgiven because they’ve been before the Lord, or say a contrived partial sorry for some actions, yet then ‘Continue’ in the sin of creating harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !

      PBCC EB members intimidate those seeking to expose truth & members lie, obfuscate & mislead in an attempt to evade being brought to justice. That’s not repentance !.

      PBCC EB signed up to a code of conduct through UK Charity Commission in Jan 2104, but then ‘Continue’ in the sin of harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !, that’s calculated wilful deception !

      Therefore,
      PBCC EB continue in the sin of harm & detriment, which means there has been no repentance or forgiveness

      More importantly,
      Even if repentance was evident (which it isn’t), PBCC EB cant escape justice from authorities re issues of harm & detriment & breaching of laws, court agreements or Charity Commission agreements. Trying to hide behind Christ to escape justice from the authorities, will not work, Gods Word, the bible is again instructive –

      Romans 13:1-14
      Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

      Luke 11:42
      “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

      Proverbs 24:24-25
      Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.

      Proverbs 21:15
      When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.

      Isaiah 1:17
      Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

      Proverbs 21:3
      To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

      Delete
    4. Forgiveness is always on the basis of repentance from sin. With repentance comes restitution; Zaccheus being the prime example. The above link suggest RAS has neither repented nor made restitution for his sins. Remember, God is 100% just. His justice must be dealt with as well as His forgiveness.

      I note your tactic of then trying to accuse the original poster, curiously telling them not to accuse. Circular logic that one.

      Then why do you think the poster has a vindictive spirit? What evidence do you have for that? Remember from Luke 12:3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

      And, let's be clear. Christ died once for *all*, Rom 6:10, 1 Peter 3:18. He was not, and is not, exclusive. He is waiting for all who would come to Him. It's not only for members of the HEB. The myth of the Recovery is just that, a myth and a pernicious one at that.

      Delete
    5. Jim
      Shut up. We don't want to know what you think. we hate the PBCC and this blog is a great way of turning people who don't know them, against them. so bog off, we don't want your self-righteous comments on here, we aren't interested. Do you hear me!

      Delete
    6. Nice try, peeb! Generally out here we don't speak to each other like that - it kind of gives you away!

      Delete
    7. Oh I don't know Jack. Jim/Leo/etc are doing a great job exposing the inadequacies, lies, contortions of scripture of the HEB PBCC for all to see just by their own narrow-minded supercilious contributions.

      Delete
  16. I am glad that the EB(PBCC) are morally separate from others. I would not want to be contaminated by those who act in such morally reprehensible ways.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Our EB correspondent who calls himself 'Jim' this time says: "The PBCC is something really unique and set apart from all that marks the world." Many of us wonder why they think this, why they think they are special. I suspect it's because a former leader, maybe the adulterous drunkard, or maybe one of the others told them they were special. So who told this leader? I suspect his own ego. Now a bit like a mummy's boy they bleat everywhere they are special because mummy told them so. Tell me, Jim, is that how it works or do you have some hard evidence?

    ReplyDelete
  18. I was in the PBCC until 1989 and it was unheard of for members to be in prison. Since those days several PBCC members have/are serving time for criminal offences. One can only deduce that standards of deportment are slipping under Bruce Hale's regime.

    ReplyDelete
  19. “Jim” in post Anon 31 October 12:38, who is obviously a member of the PBCC EB, describes the PBCC Exclusive Brethren as –

    - special
    - beautiful simplicity
    - a jolly nice lot
    - really charming and sincere.
    - these people have got a lot of things right.
    - God is so obviously prospering these people and blessing them.

    All of which sounds nice & fluffy & plausible at least on the surface, yet as ever with PBCC Exclusive Brethren you need to scratch just under the thin veneer.

    Compare what “Jim” says with the findings of the UK Charity Commission report of Jan 2014, which received evidence from multiple personal and official authoritative sources painting an altogether different and darker picture of the PBCC Exclusive Brethren. Here are just a few quotes -

    Quotes

    the Commission concluded, on balance, that there were elements of detriment and harm which emanated from doctrine and practices of the Brethren and which had a negative impact on the wider community as well as individuals. In particular the nature and impact of the Disciplinary Practices and the impact of the doctrines and practices on those who leave and on children within the PBCC may have consequences for society.

    The most serious detriment and harm related, in the Commission’s view, to the allegations of the treatment of ex-Brethren and to the Disciplinary Practices.

    End Quotes

    Now, it is obvious to all, there is a total disconnect and detachment from reality with what “Jim” states, and what is contained in the UK Charity Commission report of Jan 2014.

    You could almost be forgiven for thinking that “Jim” is describing a different organisation to that PBCC Exclusive Brethren which features in the CC report of Jan 2014.

    Its obvious that “Jim” is simply trying to hoodwink readers, deceive them, and pull the wool over the publics eyes, with nice fluffy descriptions. If we needed more evidence of the deception used by “Jim” just look at this quote from the CC report of Jan 2014

    Quote

    The most serious detriment and harm related, in the Commission’s view, to the allegations of the treatment of ex-Brethren and to the Disciplinary Practices. The Commission asked that the PBCC address these issues, which they were willing to do.

    End Quote

    “Jim”, the PBCC EB were forced by the CC to recognise that changes needed to be made to their practices and the PBCC EB were willing to make those changes. So the PBCC EB recognised that there were issues of detriment & harm. That does not fit with your quoted nice fluffy descriptive perceptions with which you try to deceive the public, does it ?

    “Jim”, the fact that a secular organisation (the CC) had to force the PBCC EB to try to become more Christian, to be less harmful and less detrimental, does not fit your quoted nice fluffy descriptive perceptions with which you try to deceive the public, does it ?

    “Jim” even more important, considering the deadline for review is fast approaching, have the changes the PBCC EB signed up to and committed to actually been put into practice ?

    “Jim”, from evidence I and others have, NO changes have been made at all, in line with the CC agreement the PBCC EB signed up to, which means the PBCC EB are in breach of the Charity Commission agreement, which means your charitable status will again be in doubt at the review in 2015

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 20:37 Wrong
      I'm not a member, but whether l am or not, the truth stands and will stand no matter what is thrown against it.

      Back to the drawing board?

      Delete
    2. Anon 3 Nov 13:07 what a delusional response !

      You were presented with factual evidence and truth in the post at Anon 1 Nov 20:37 which contained direct quotes from the Charity Commission Report of Jan 2014 and you respond by declaring it as “wrong” !

      Yes the truth will indeed stand no matter how much spin, obfuscation, lies, nice fluffy sounding platitudes, misinformation and deception tactics the PBCC EB try to throw at it.

      Yes the truth will indeed stand no matter how many times the PBCC EB bury their heads in the sand and deny everything, the truth does not go away

      Delete
    3. You are right. The truth still stands. It's that light of the truth which reveals the darkness and the lies perpetuated by the Hales Exclusive Brethren, (PBCC).

      Truth is not an arbitrary thing defined by users of it. Truth is an absolute. Truth is there for all to see.

      Sadly, so are the Brethren's lies.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous 3 Nov 13:07

      I'm sure you will tell the Charities Commission they are wrong and have failed to recognise your version of truth.
      Let's hope they do go back to the drawing board and hold the PBCC to their written agreement. Truth does indeed stand, but truth is based on evidence and fact; not on what you or i say that it is.


      Ricardo



      Delete
  20. I was told that Mr Jim could not sin, how could the Lords elec vessel sin. I think most of the Brethen are told that Mr Jim was only pretending to be drunk and lay in bed with another man's wife to deceive and exspose Persons not prepared for a clean place for the Lord. Amazing how far one will go to be holy.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I wonder when Bruce Hales will ever sit with the victims of child abuse from his church - and whether he will have a coffee with them. So far all he has done is distance himself from them and say it was nothing to do with him. Big difference. Suffer the little children indeed......

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I actually think that his day is coming. He probably knows it. His actions are that of a scared (to the point of paranoia) individual.

      I notice that he chose (or was advised by his legal team) not to challenge the CC in a tribunal. He probably knew that there was a lot of very damning evidence against him and his cult waiting to be exposed. I doubt he knew the full extent though - there was (and is) trolley loads.

      Their choice to make some doctrinal and behavioural changes to satisfy the CC will probably be their undoing. Signing up to fairness, openness, compassion and reconciliation while under the watchful eye of the CC is likely to cause them a problem. Now, there is even more evidence piling up in the CC inbox of more failure. Not only is there a lot of evidence of abuse, but now there is a lot more evidence of failure to address it, unfairness, lack of compassion, and more. This is not historical, this is failing to adhere to the agreement of 2014. The CC have loads of documentation. The PBCC will now be forced to comply, or lose charitable status. I hope that they do lose it, and are asked to hand their assets to a real charity.

      Delete
  22. Have I understood correctly the comment above, from a PBCC supporter on 1 November, that "class" is a factor in PBCC separation, or is the poster just talking about herself/himself?

    The contributor wrote: "If I were to help my neighbour by giving him/her a lift to work or doing a food shop to help out, it is an act of love, but separation of faith or class is still there and respected between us."

    The teaching of Jesus and the apostle Paul does not support separation by social class.

    ReplyDelete
  23. No Joan - Apparently, there is little you do understand correctly and here is why -

    Class is a term generally used for / acknowledges differences in status and has been there more or less since the dawn of mankind, but does not mean human worth. Sadly, some worldly minded people may use status to lord it over others, but that is the spirit of the world and not of Christ.
    So if you want to be politically correct and fudge the fact there ARE differences, that's your error and you are welcome to it.

    Indeed, Jesus spoke about rich and poor, so we all have the same need to be fair and acknowledge him as saviour and Lord. The bible and the Gospel is very clear and God's compassion is towards (all men) regardless of class.
    We thus should look at things in their real context or context intended.

    As I said or words to the same effect, it does not matter who we think we are or where we have come from because the need and requirement to submit is the same. Have you submitted to the Lord Joan? Your will then find and know your place.

    It's also not intelligent to say - All men are equal or have been created equal, that is a noble notion of man, but actually is an error. It is NOT truth and resolves nothing.

    The way man can be one and united, is by acknowledging The truth as set out in God's standard in the bible. He will not change it for us. There is one truth, not two.
    Darkness and light and right and wrong. No greyness in the nature of God.
    See - It's absolute common sense.

    Political correctness is not truth and another element of apostasy which has come in to our nation and we are all the poorer for it.
    Class is in the dictionary folks, so look it up and then apply it (In context)

    There is a place for everyone in their place.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 "The way man can be one and united, is by acknowledging The truth as set out in God's standard in the bible. He will not change it for us. There is one truth, not two.
      Darkness and light and right and wrong. No greyness in the nature of God.
      See - It's absolute common sense. "

      So do you believe in the actual existence of talking snakes and donkeys. Do you really believe that Noah could have even been able to have gathered together two of every animal and insect. And then might have actually even known, how to take care of each of them all so as to keep them alive.When we know how we do still continue to struggle to even be able to properly understand, how to keep all these animals and insects alive,these days.

      Do you actually believe its true, that Jesus caste-out demons, into a herd of pigs.How many demons have you come across yourself today,purposely asking to be driven-out into a herd of pigs

      It is most obvious, that the bible was inspired via mind of men.Therefore there is indeed many areas of grey

      I'd say that Joan would leave someone like you ,fumbling around in a huge puddle of murky ignorance.If we were to compare Joan's ability to understand, and your ability to understand

      Man is far more likely to be able to become united. Once people like yourself, begin to realize how many grey areas exist

      Until such time.We are more than happy, to continue to expose how little it is, that folk like you understand

      Delete
    2. Anonymous 3 November 10.27.
      To use another meaning of "class" I would suggest that you demonstrate a lack of it!
      Those who visit this blog cannot have failed to recognise that Joan is a well educated retired school teacher and as such is worthy of our respect. Whilst I do not know her I have identified in her postings that she is a lady who held the Exclusive Brethren in high regard in the era prior to the introduction of JT junior's extreme, harsh and non-biblical teaching on separation.
      Since leaving the EB over 40 years ago I have learned to respect all Christians and non-Christians. Your views on this blog are to be welcomed if only to demonstrate that the EB ARE different in the way they show (or rather fail to show) courtesy and good manners to those with whom they may not agree.
      Perhaps you could reflect again upon the tone of your posting and ask yourself if you could have expressed your sentiments in a more gracious manner.

      Delete
    3. Dear anon 3 Nov 10:27,

      That’s a rather contrived response to Joan’s simple question. Your response contains contradictions, confusions, circular straw man arguments & worryingly in places contradicts the Word of God the Bible

      You say -
      “It's also not intelligent to say - All men are equal or have been created equal, that is a noble notion of man, but actually is an error. It is NOT truth and resolves nothing.”

      Yet, the Bible (which is the Word of God), says the complete opposite –

      Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

      Colossians 3:9-11 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

      Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

      James 2:8-9 If indeed ye keep [the] royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. But if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.

      1 Samuel 16: 7 But Jehovah said to Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him; for it is not as man seeth; for man looketh upon the outward appearance, but Jehovah looketh upon the heart.

      1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

      Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

      Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

      So anon 3 Nov 10:27,

      From a Christian perspective the Word of God teaches all ARE equal in the sight of God. Yes there are differences of social standing, wealth, poor, educated, non educated etc, but it is sinful man who uses the differences to create distinctions but that is not Gods thought. Your comments are wrong & contrary to the Word of God.

      In your post of 1 Nov 11:10 you said –

      “If I were to help my neighbour by giving him/her a lift to work or doing a food shop to help out, it is an act of love, but separation of faith or class is still there and respected between us."

      If you are a Christian following the Bible & Gods Commandments then separation of “class” as you term it, should not enter your head. It may exist in practical reality as there are differences of social standing, wealth, poor, educated, non educated etc but those differences are not in Gods mind and should not be in a Christians mind either, as the Bible strongly warns against such thoughts. See Bible refs above

      Yet now in your post of 3 Nov 10:27 you say -

      “The bible and the Gospel is very clear and God's compassion is towards (all men) regardless of class.”

      You are now correct, but have contradicted your original comment from post of 1 Nov 11:10. To even mention “class” in your earlier post was wrong, as that is not Gods thought, “class” should not enter your head, because Christians know the Bible strongly warns against making such distinctions. See Bible refs above

      One other thing,

      Why mention “faith” ? Your neighbour might be a Christian saved by the blood of Christ & be following Gods commandments as taught in Gods Word the Bible (unlike the PBCC EB), in which case the neighbour has been “called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord”. 1 Corinthians 1 v9, which is the only fellowship, in which case there should be no separation should there ?

      Delete
    4. 10:27
      Wrong ..the bible is not contrived from the mind of man. It's the inspired word of God. It is truth and light to those who are humble and prepared to be obedient.

      Jim

      Delete
    5. Dear Rev- The translation you are using is defective and watered down to suit your own notions. These notions are not from God, but the contentious mind of man which has gotten away from the truth.

      A. Freeman

      Delete
    6. 5th Nov 13:44
      A. Freeman

      I wondered when that silly misdirection & deception might be used !

      The PBCC Exclusive Brethren have only used the JN Darby version since the time of James Taylor Senior in the 1930’s & 40’s.

      Before that, the King James Version was happily used by Exclusive Brethren, JND himself used the KJV.

      James Taylor taught the JND version should be used by EB in the group, but when talking to those in government authority he recommended the KJV was used. Garth Christie used the KJV in 2012

      A. Freeman, is your point that the only Bible to use is the JN Darby version ?

      I find it helpful to use various version eg. King James, JN Darby, New King James, New International Version & English Standard Version etc to ensure a fully rounded, informed understanding

      I cant recall the translation I used for the Bible quotes in my post @ 4 Nov 19:26, it might be the English Standard Version

      Heres some detail on the ESV – “The ESV Study Bible was created by a team of 95 outstanding evangelical Bible scholars and teachers. They were chosen, first, because of their deep commitment to the truth, authority, and sufficiency of God’s Word; and, second, because of their expertise in teaching and understanding the Bible.” - “To this end each word and phrase in the ESV has been carefully weighed against the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, to ensure the fullest accuracy and clarity and to avoid under-translating or overlooking any nuance of the original text. The words and phrases themselves grow out of the Tyndale-King James legacy”

      However,
      Using the JND Bible lets look at the Bible refs used in my 4 Nov 19:26 post, to see if there is a difference in emphasis, meaning or command which changes the conclusions in my post @ 4 Nov 19:26

      Galatians 3:28 There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus:

      Colossians 3:9-11 Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, and having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to [the] image of him that has created him; wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ [is] everything, and in all.

      Acts 10:34 And Peter opening his mouth said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

      James 2:8-9 If indeed ye keep [the] royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. But if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.

      1 Samuel 16: 7 But Jehovah said to Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him; for it is not as man seeth; for man looketh upon the outward appearance, but Jehovah looketh upon the heart.

      1 Timothy 5:21 I testify before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, that thou keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by favour.

      Romans 10:12 For there is no difference of Jew and Greek; for the same Lord of all [is] rich towards all that call upon him.

      Genesis 1:27 And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

      A.Freeman,
      Using the JND Bible for the Bible refs used in my post of 4 Nov 19:26 changes nothing !. The conclusions in my post @ 4 Nov 19:26 remain the same, because the Bible which is Gods Word remains the same. Praise His Name

      Are you now going to say the JND Bible is – defective, watered down, notions are not from God, contentious mind of man, away from the truth ?

      A. Freeman,
      Your desperate attempts to try to discredit, misdirect & confuse only serve to expose the unchristian deception tactics of the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church. The PBCC EB will even try to discredit the Bible, in order to try to wriggle out of their error & false teaching being exposed.

      Delete
    7. "Anonymous5 November 2014 13:37
      10:27
      Wrong ..the bible is not contrived from the mind of man. It's the inspired word of God. It is truth and light to those who are humble and prepared to be obedient.

      Jim"

      Jim. Many Muslim are making the same claim about the Quran.

      Humble people can sometimes also be led to believe things that may be wrong.Just like the way that a number of humble exclusive brethren members, were easily led to believe that James Taylor jr was a pure man

      Humble people can just as easily become easy meat, for the power hungry people to exploit


      Delete
  24. Attempts to change sexual orientation would come into the abuse category, too.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wonder if Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 crew would place people with a different sexual orientation,within a separate class.How would they place these peoples status and worth.Will these people also be delivered the very same level of compassion.

      Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 has been busy here explaining to us that "The bible and the Gospel is very clear and God's compassion is towards (all men) regardless of class. "

      Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 also has been seen here to state, "It's also not intelligent to say - All men are equal or have been created equal, that is a noble notion of man, but actually is an error. It is NOT truth and resolves nothing."

      We are happy that Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27,fully understands that not all people are created the same

      Hopefully Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 understands that genocide is a word that can also be found in dictionaries too. Heres hoping Anonymous3 November 2014 10:27 will know, how this still doesnt make it anymore ok, for anyone to apply the practice


      Delete
  25. The extensive apologetic on 3 November at 10:27 is confused and confusing. Does the writer agree or disagree with class? He/she writes that there is a place for people and everyone in their place (a classic Symingtonism!). He/she also writes, contrary to Scripture, that all men are not created equal. Perhaps he/she would be good enough to clarify that statement.

    ReplyDelete
  26. An Anonymous wrote :“Jim” in post Anon 31 October 12:38, who is obviously a member of the PBCC EB...

    Not so fast! Jim's contributions are so much more professional than the pathetic attempts at spelling and grammar displayed by typical EB-educated EB-contributors. I suspect he is traditionally (i.e. well) educated stirrer, either stirring for fun or in the employ of the EB.

    RLS

    ReplyDelete
  27. Jim wrote "If you have peace with God, you will be able to live in harmony with all men."

    Well done mate. With one little sentence you have just confirmed the status of the PBCC/EB. Bad mistake. Your paycheck may be a little light this month.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Stop using my name in vain. You're not a patch on the real Jims the Brethren have had the blessing to be led by over the years!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Jim
    You said higher up this thread 'If you have peace with God, you will be able to live in harmony with all men'
    This is a fine statement and it exposes the EB
    Tell us Jim, why can't the EB be honest and answer questions?
    Tell us JIm, why do the EB close down when you quote scripture?
    Tell us Jim, why do the EB put the phone down, or not answer at all?
    Tell us Jim, why did they refuse me access to a meeting, when I came peacefully?
    These things wouldn't happen if the EB lived in harmony with all men
    Peter

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 17:56 Peter,
      Sorry, l have no idea of what you've been up to. Being polite usually goes a long way.

      All l know, is you need to be ready to make changes in your attitude.
      Then these people might be more likely to welcome you inside.

      "Coming peacefully" also includes not linking on with hostile people who want to attack the Recovery.

      If they are putting the phone down, it's likely you are a pain in the arse.
      l would do the same.

      Work it out for yourself and make the changes needed.
      Let me know how you get on ok.

      Jim

      Delete
    2. Jim - In or Out ?

      In your 31 Oct 12:38 you state - “as far as we outsiders know” “seem to be” “from what I understand” “they tend to”. You try to give the impression your an “outsider” & not “inside” the PBCC

      Yet in your post above @ 14:21 you say -

      “All l know, is you need to be ready to make changes in your attitude. Then these people might be more likely to welcome you inside”

      Jim, are you ‘inside’ or ‘outside’ the PBCC ?

      If you are ‘out’ then your statement above saying - “changes in your attitude…more likely to welcome you inside” - also applies to you Jim, does it not ?

      If you are ‘in’ then your earlier posts in which you pretend to be an ‘outsider’ are lies?

      Jim – Politeness

      In your post above @14:21 you say – “Being polite usually goes a long way” then a little further in the same post - “it's likely you are a pain in the arse.l would do the same.”

      Jim, you attack Peter by implying he might not have been “polite” in conversations , something which you have no idea about because you did not hear the conversations, then you proceed to ignore your own condescending advice and are rude to Peter !

      Jim, you have a rather illogical & twisted way of being “polite”

      Jim – access to a meeting

      In your post above @14:21 you say – "Coming peacefully" also includes not linking on with hostile people who want to attack the Recovery.

      Again you make assumptions & inferences without any facts. You have no idea if Peter took others opposed to the PBCC with him in his attempted visit to a PBCC meeting room. Peter says he went peacefully which should not have been a barrier should it ?.

      Jim, so what if hostile persons want to attend, is that not a great opportunity for PBCC to evangelise ? Christians are instructed to preach the Word in season & out of season (2 Timothy 4) and to be ready to answer to those who question the hope in you (1 Peter 3).

      Jim, did you know your so called “Recovery” is a myth ?

      Talking of a Recovery implies something had been lost, yet nothing had been, or is lost. There are plenty of Christian Churches today (outside the PBCC) who follow Gods Word the Bible, follow Pauline teaching, hold the breaking of bread, hold baptism as biblically taught, know practically the One Body and the Head in Heaven, are non sectarian and believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

      Yet your so called Recovery ignores vast swathes of Gods Word, is deeply sectarian, separates from the One body of Christ, declares all other Christians as unfit to eat or drink with, declares all other Christians as unfit to be at the Lords table to worship with or commune with, thinks the Holy Spirit is confined to the PBCC, thinks the Holy Spirit is whisky, teaches that an alcoholic womanising leader (Jim Taylor) is pure, ignores Pauline teaching on appointment of (& accountability of) elders and deacons, divides families, has been found to cause detriment & harm etc etc

      As a Christian myself, I am indeed opposed to your so called “Recovery” because it is not Christian as biblically taught. Your so called "Recovery" is a recovery of sin

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    3. Rev dear,
      lf you are so right, why are you always on the defensive? It tends to make us feel you cannot justify your words.

      Ummm So can you be "opposed" to the "Recovery" if you don't believe in such a teaching? Are you a bit uneasy now and on the backfoot?

      Ummm so does Recovery mean "Lost"?
      Have you thought about context that JND used / intended?
      Example: To be in decline and then Recover.That makes perfect sense.

      Thus the recovery of the truth seems to be very Christian to most upright folk.
      Does it have to be in the bible to be true?

      Furthermore - You are a contentious fool, but does it have to state that in the bible to be true?

      Just sayin

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    4. JND never used the term “recovery” to refer to his own group of Brethren and the development of their doctrinal concepts and practices. That usage was introduced by later leaders and was made popular by A. J. Gardiner.

      As Brother Rev implies, it is a deceptive term. It probably became popular among Brethren because it tends to muddy the fact that modern Exclusive Brethrenism is a new religious movement unlike anything that existed in the past. The term tends to imply some affinity with the early Apostolic church, when there is none. Modern Exclusive Brethrenism represents a rejection of the core Christian principles taught by Jesus and his Apostles. It is not a recovery: it is a modern invention.

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    5. Just sayin:

      It's not being defensive, it's graciously being corrective. Correcting the errors and defective non-Biblical doctrines the PBCC cult espouse.

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    6. Anon 11 November 01:15

      I can tell from your comments that you are struggling to understand the factual truth that Rev is placing before you and because of that you are clutching at any desperate, devious and dishonest methods of trying to discredit, even to the point of inventing problems that don’t exist.

      Like the rest of the posters Rev is here to refute your dishonesty, deceptions and abuse of Christianity. If you are so right 01:15 why are you here 01:15 ?, why can you not justify the pbcc position from the Bible 01:15 ?

      Your second sentence is completely foolish and makes no sense at all. For example, if you believe in something why would you be opposed to it ? You oppose something because you don’t believe it is worthwhile or has any merit or validity or it may also be damaging

      Your third sentence is not based on fact either. The Christian Church in general was not in decline, nor is it now.

      Your language is extremely odd, why say ‘most upright folk’, that implies the rest are walking around on all fours ! ?

      If you or Rev or others are talking about Christian doctrines, truths, practices, then of course they have to be explained from the Bible to be true to the Christian faith. To imply otherwise as you have done is to do away with the Bible, which is what the Exclusive Brethren have done

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    7. Thank you Jim for replying
      You asked me to let you know and I trust you will oblige and keep the discussion going
      Rev has dealt with most points and your reply is awaited

      I will add
      Para 2 as to changes and attitude
      The EB notice boards, the CC report, the Lord Jesus, don't make this a requirement. I go to other Christian groups (various) in exactly the same attitude and get welcomed in. Also I thought the Gospel is preached to bring a change and conversion and obviously you need to get in and hear it first!

      Para 3 as to not linking on with hostile people
      again this is not a requirement, and I don't personally know of any such people
      What have I said that would justify making such an inference. I take it as an unacceptable slur

      Para 4
      This is not how a Christian speaks. Jim are you a Christian?

      The question you seem to have not referred to is "Tell us JIm, why do the EB close down when you quote scripture?"
      Is there a reason? are you or the EB uncomfortable?

      Peter

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  30. Evidently, A Freeman is a Bible scholar of some repute. Perhaps he would clarify his criticism of Rev's translation and defend whichever one he uses.

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  31. Jim warbles: "... the bible is not contrived from the mind of man. It's the inspired word of God."

    Who told you that? The richest furniture salesman in Sydney?

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  32. Worth considering that the Bible might be inspired by but not dictated by God. Better people than Sydney salesmen think that.

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    Replies
    1. The Questioner9 November 2014 08:57

      How could someone discern what is Gods word,as opposed to what isnt Gods word.When at every single point of conjecture,from point of first inspiration,and right up until now, this information always still need to be filtered through human minds

      This kind of information has been steeped in humanity.So much so, that it might as well be, word of man





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  33. It is man's words. I never said otherwise. But God-breathed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Be it God-Breathed,or God-inspired.Either way, we can still only use human minds to try and discern.

      Seems extremely sad that worldwide many families would still remain divided their lives blighted by family dysfunction. And that some people could still believe that there would ever be likely to be some kind of eternal punishment, for people getting things wrong.Even more strange that some believers, would tend to see the non believers, as being extremely wicked people.As if Gods-existence, was somehow something so obvious

      Faith in God has been steeped so long in loads of human minded bias.Even deceit and greed.Who can really say, that they can even understand for sure, the full story http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2827310/Jesus-married-prostitute-Mary-Magdalene-two-children-lost-gospel-reveals.html

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    2. You feeling ok Rev?
      When it's quiet we worry you are feeling the strain...

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    3. 09:42 10 November 2014

      Many have commented on this. Here's a good reply from the C of E nicely challenging any authenticity.

      http://cofecomms.tumblr.com/post/102441315167/its-not-lost-its-not-a-gospel-its-a-very-naughty

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    4. Just to remind us all what this thread was about from The Archbishop of Canterbury:

      "There is “more that has not been revealed”, he admits. Jesus wept. He is probably doing so again over the stench of hypocrisy which covers this chronic corruption, exploitation, injustice and egregious violations of innocence.

      “We will systematically bring those transparently and openly first of all working with the survivors where they are still alive and then seeing what they want,” Archbishop Justin says. “The rule is survivors come first, not our own interests and however important the person was, however distinguished, however well known, survivors come first.”

      And what are the so called 'Plymouth Brethren Christian Church' /Hales Exclusive Brethren doing?

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