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Wednesday, 8 October 2014

Does the Charity Commission know that Garth Christie's PBCC meeting in Horsforth, Leeds, UK, isn't part of the 'Churches Together' scheme in Horsforth?


53 comments:

  1. I cannot see why this matters. Many churches are not part of Churches Together.

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    Replies
    1. "Churches Together"
      A glaring contradiction of terms and a luck-warm, watered down fudge of which Christ will rightly spew from his mouth.

      Together and eh on what basis?
      Agreeing to disagree? Nope
      One foot in the world? Nope
      Schools of Opinion? Nope
      Contentions? Nope
      Compromise? Nope
      Reasonings? Nope
      Hankering after this world? Nope
      Watching crappy TV? Nope
      Holidays? Nope
      Seeking riches? Nope
      Lifetime of good works? Nope

      All comes back to being simply obedient and being ready to be adjusted by his current word.

      Delete
    2. "Churches Together" Oh dear me..

      A glaring contradiction of The Church and a luck-warm, watered down fudge of which Christ will rightly spew from his mouth.

      Together and eh on what basis?
      Agreeing to disagree? Nope
      One foot in the world? Nope
      Schools of Opinion? Nope
      Contentions? Nope
      Compromise? Nope
      Reasonings? Nope
      Pets to tie us down? Nope
      Hankering after this world? Nope
      Watching crappy TV? Nope
      A vicar' s sermon? Nope
      Night clubs and Holidays? Nope
      Seeking riches and pleasure? Nope
      Saltless utterings and ramblings
      from the pulpit of Darkness? Nope
      Lifetime of good works? Nope
      Tea and cakes in the vicarage garden? Oh no no no

      All comes back to being simply obedient and being ready to be adjusted by the word.

      We can all say ..Amen to that

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    3. Anon 13th Oct 12:29 & 13 October 2014 13:45

      Your comments are shocking display of unchristian unbiblical sin of sectarianism and denigration of the work of God in other Christians in other Christian Churches, that is Christians who have been accepted by Him.

      Do you not know your Bible ?, it teaches that –

      - all Christians (that is ALL) are part of the One Body, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12, Ephesians 4.

      - all Christians (that is ALL) are part of the One fellowship, 1 Corinthians 1

      - as Christians we are to accept all (that is ALL) Christians on the basis of Romans 15 v7 and Romans 14

      - as Christians we are not (that is NOT) to dispute over words, Titus 3, 1 Timothy 6, 2 Timothy 2 v14

      What PBCC EB don’t seem able to accept or understand, is that despite there being different denominations and types of Christian Churches, the vast majority are united in the core elements of the Christian faith and Salvation in Christ, therefore the vast majority work together for the good of the Gospel, whether that be with Churches Together or with other community and church groups.

      I ask again, do you not know your Bible ?, it teaches that -

      - The sin of sectarianism is warned about in 1 Corinthians 1, yet you seem to want to repeat that sin.

      - Gods Word also teaches that differences outside the core essentials of the Christian faith are acceptable, read 1 Corinthians 12 about the different works, styles, gifts, operations & administrations of the Spirit.

      - Gods Word also teaches about individual conscience and liberty in Romans 14.

      Yet Anon 13th Oct 12:29 & 13 October 2014 13:45 your posts wilfully ignore what Gods Word teaches and you condemn all others outside of PBCC EB !

      The Charity Commission, the Evangelical Alliance, the Christian Institute will be very interested and appalled at what you have stated.

      Sadly, those of us like me who really know what PBCC EB teach under the current thin veneer of spin and lies, are not surprised at all, because your posts just confirms what an out and out sectarian cult the PBCC EB really are and the damage to the Christian faith that it causes

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    4. You could hardly describe the PBCC as a lukewarm, watered-down fudge. There is nothing mediocre about it. Its teachings and endemic values are extremist and actively hostile to some of the core principles that were taught and exemplified by Jesus, treasured by Christians and respected by good people everywhere. Some of its ingredients are much too toxic to be called fudge.

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    5. Rev and Ian...
      Wake up and smell the coffee dears.
      I suspect that was a deliberate spoof by Anon and designed to gee us up.
      Nevertheless, a ring of truth regarding lukewarmness and watering-down of Christian teaching.
      Better to not sweep the matter under the carpet Rev, but rather admit he or she has a point worth examining..

      Trix

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    6. 'Holidays? Nope'

      Contrary to claims that are made on the PBCC's own website!

      No signs of Gordon Pollard's 666 theory and the world of IT leading up to the man of sin in that list. As for pets, I bet all cats, dogs and goldfish in the world are praying that the lord doesn't turn a corner on them!

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    7. I think the only spoof here is your post Trix Anon 13 October 17:09.

      You suggest - “Better to not sweep the matter under the carpet Rev, but rather admit he or she has a point worth examining”

      My post of 13 October 14:26 does just what you suggest and examines the points made by Anon 13 October 13:45 & Anon 12:29. Perhaps you should read my post again. It draws attention to the fact that the posts from the two Anon’s show huge departure from what Gods Word in the Bible teaches.

      Unless you have the arrogance to say you and the two Anon’s know better than the Bible which is Gods Word ! ?

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    8. 12.29/ 13.45 ...Looks like we have a rather venomous and deranged parrot on board.

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    9. Yes 12:29/ 13:45 l'm afraid Rev does tend to repeat his lines parrot fashion. Shows lack of conviction in one's own twaddle. Next sucker please

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    10. Nobody should accuse the Rev of sweeping under the carpet, as he always deals with points from sad, indoctrinated cult members with patience and Scriptural references. It seems as though our salty commentator above need a holiday, or maybe a dog to take out for exercise, as he seems currently stressed, as demonstrated by his utterances and ramblings, running into two editions, with minor editing.

      Also, nobody could accuse the PBCC cult of not being ready to adjust to his current word. If the CEO says mobile devices are OK; they are all equipped by the following week!

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    11. Kind of feel sorry for Rev as he seems to be taking direct hits from Leonardo and others who obviously know his agenda.
      Sometimes it's a case of being holed below the waterline Rev. Time to return to shore or plug those gaping holes?

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    12. I actually admire the Rev as he is a tireless and learned advocate for Christianity. It is true that he is frequented goaded by Leonardo/thuggish elements, or perhaps young people who shouldn't be accessing this site and might be better occupied doing their homework.

      However, in order for evil to prevail it is only necessary for good men to do nothing

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    13. The Rev isn't taking direct hits nor is holed below the waterline as his non Christian opposers do not come close to debate as they have an erroneously, fixed position; subsequently, they are often rather abusive. The truth is, he infuriates the non Christian opposers because his knowledge of The Scriptures, and scholarship, far exceeds theirs. The thing is, EB/PBCC members are supposed to be more familiar with The Scriptures than any other book, or work of literature, since they do not read the latter. That is to say, next to the "ministry" of the current leader; this holds pre-eminence over The Scriptures, of course. However, PBCC members are woefully lacking in their supposedly one area of expertise, this is because they do not engage in bible study per se. The fact is, many are totally bored by their endless meetings and probably switch off to think about their businesses, or whatever.

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  2. But does the Charity Commission know that all the churches in that list under the collective name of “Christendom” have been condemned in extreme language by Brethren leaders?

    For a start, the Brethren do not recognise any of these churches as genuinely part of God’s church.

    Between May and July 1970, Mr Jim Taylor declared with some emphasis that “We are the church.” When he first said it in Sheffield his words might have passed for a joke, or a parody of pretension: “We're the royalty, we're the church, and we're everything else. There's nothing we're not”, but when he repeated it in Glasgow a few days later he was emphatic and clearly serious. “Assemblies of God refer now without question to those walking according to 2 Timothy 2. There's no other assembly apart from that, and we are the church. I hope you understand that, — we, I'm saying, we are the church, the assembly.” The phrase, “no other assembly apart from that,” seemed to imply not only that we are the church, but also that other gatherings are not the church.

    Back in New York in June he re-affirmed that the time has come to be bold and say that we are the church and he argued that JND, FER and JT supported him in that claim. He repeated this later the same day, then in Germany at Huttental-Weidenau he made it very clear that only our particular sect is the church, not anyone else. A similar claim was made at Ealing and then at Preston, where two people agreed enthusiastically.

    Not only are these other churches not part of the real Church in Brethren’s eyes, but they are evil and under the control of Satan, and often referred to collectively as Christendom and roundly denounced. In 1956 Mr A. B. Parker, in a meeting chaired by J.T.Jr., spoke about Christendom eventually becoming antichrist in character. In Peterhead in 1961 Mr Taylor, speaking about the treachery and betrayal of Judas, said it has come out in full blown condition in Christendom, and at Plainfield in 1963 he said, “. . .we have in the area of Christendom the full development from Satan of what exists at the present time.” In the same Peterhead meeting he referred specifically to the Open Brethren as a particular example of betrayal of Christ.

    During a trip to France in 1961 J.T.Jr. denounced Christendom in general and Open Brethrenism in particular in the Haute Loire and in St Etienne, he declared that “what Christendom is today is the result of apostasy,” which he associated with the Antichrist.

    It is very common indeed for this group of Brethren to refer to themselves as “the saints” in contexts where it is clear they are not referring to any other Christians. For example, Mr Taylor Jr. would often write in his letters something like, We long to visit the dear saints in Australia and New Zealand, or he would say in meetings something like, the houses of the saints are clean. These other places are not. The term saints, to the EB, usually means Exclusive Brethren. Other Christians are sometimes overlooked, and sometimes explicitly excluded, when terms like saints, assembly or church are used.

    These verbal habits imply that other Christians don’t qualify for inclusion, or worse. Mr B. D. Hales declared in a Brethren meeting in Sydney in 2006 that those (like me for example) who accuse the Brethren of breaking up families are “not worth spitting on.” Among the young people in particular, verbal habits like these could breed an attitude of disrespect for outsiders, and lots of anecdotal evidence suggests that it has done just that. Many have said that EB children refer to non-EB as worldlings or worldlies, or on one unfortunate occasion as cunts when televisions cameras were running. They can hardly fail to be influenced by the attitudes of their leaders.

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  3. But according to BDH, the current leader, it is not only Christendom, Open Brethrenism, the world’s literature and the world’s religions that are to be denounced: it is the world itself. Not only denounced, but hated. The principles of the world have to be scorned and disdained and hated. “You must hate the world, every feature of the world, at every point you hate it…”

    However, the most vitriolic denunciation of non-Brethren is usually reserved for those who have left the Exclusives. In some other churches, when a person or a family leave to go to a different denomination, there is a farewell service of blessing, when the congregation commend the family to God’s care and assure them of their continuing love.

    In the Exclusives it could not be more different. J.T.Jr. has taught that they should be abandoned and both he and the current leader, B. D. Hales, have said or implied that those who have left them are no longer Christians. BDH has specifically implied that their eternal salvation is at stake. This was a pretty radical reversal of one of the central doctrines of the Brethren’s Calvinist heritage.

    These statements were addressed specifically to younger brethren, and were probably intended to make them afraid to leave the Brethren for fear of losing their salvation and finishing up in Hell. The things he said on this subject would probably offend people throughout the Christian spectrum from fundamentalist evangelicals to modernist liberals, from Calvinists to Catholics, from Bible-Belt Americans to Greek Orthodox patriarchs.

    In 2002 he said that those who leave the Exclusives can't claim to be believers or to have a real link with Christianity. In 2005 he said that when those who have left say they are saved, it means absolutely nothing. Their eternal salvation is totally in question, totally and absolutely in question. In 2006 he said that Christianity for us, the saints, is the holy fellowship [meaning his particular fellowship] and if you leave the fellowship you don't have Christianity.

    I don’t think you get sectarianism any more extreme than that.

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    1. Those poor Brethren children! At least when I was a kid surrounded by that same level of sectarian indoctrination under Jim Symington, we had the good fortune to be able to go to an ordinary non-peeb school and experience 5hrs/day (home for lunch-hour, of course) of near-normal children's life. It feels to me like HEB kids today are being crucified on an altar of Halesian egotistical power-play. The insularity of the HEB/PBCC nowadays, horrifies me.

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  4. Who gives a monkey's uncle or even s rat's arse what Ian thinks.
    There is no blessing in someone seeking an easier way. Demas left having loved the present age. He loved the workd and lost his life.That equates to forsaking Christ.

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    1. None of us left to seek an easier way. We left a body which was losing all touch with even the basics of true Christianity. And we ONLY found true Christianity outside of the EB. In my case, having retained my ability to use the intelligence God gave me and the God given ability to reason it was glaringly apparent that the leaders were using the brethren for their own personal financial enrichment. We saw ownership of the brethren business being passed down through the family which owns it. And saw through the ministry which had no Scriptural basis whatsoever but was designed to control. I appreciate that your ability to analyse what you are being fed as ministry is totally lacking. If and when you do find that ability, and dare to use it, you will feel so embarrassed that you could ever swallow the junk that you are currently being fed. I remember the comment of JTJr that the brethren were so stupid that they would do whatever he told them no matter how ridiculous it was. And he was right. And you are in exactly the same position of total gullibility. It is long overdue that the EB woke up and consigned the Hales dynasty to the dustbin of history where they belong, and seek out true Christianity free from man made ministry which is solely designed to keep them in blind obedient slavery. Which is where you are although I realise you won't cotton on to that fact until you escape. And escaping was possibly the best thing I've done in life.

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    2. I hope Demas never chartered boats from worldly people and went whale watching on the Lord's Day!

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    3. Anon 10th Oct @23:22

      You put an interpretation and spin on the Demas event from 2 Timothy 4 verse 10, that is ‘Not’ supported by the original greek text nor by biblical scholars, or by any with even a basic understanding of Gods Word the Bible.

      Of course that is to be expected from the PBCC Exclusive Brethren, who consistently misinterpret and twist scripture to suit their own ends. The PBCC Exclusive Brethren also persist in the heresy and error of equating leaving their group to turning away from the Christian faith.

      Here is a scholarly selection which might enlighten

      From Ellicott’s commentary
      “Having loved ease and safety, chose rather to live daintily at home than to suffer affliction, than to endure hardship, with me, and with me to bear these present dangers.”

      Meyer's NT Commentary
      2 Timothy 4:10. Δημᾶς γάρ με ἐγκατέλιπεν] ἐγκαταλείπειν is equivalent to “leave in the lurch.” It is wrong to interpret this either of a departure from the place merely, or of an entire apostasy from the gospel. Demas is mentioned also in Colossians 4:14 and Philemon 1:24 as a σύνεργος of the apostle

      Pulpit Commentary
      Having loved this present world. It would appear from this that Demas had not the faith or the courage to run the risk of sharing St. Paul's imminent martyrdom at Rome, but left him, while he was free to do so, under pretence of an urgent call to Thessaloniea; just as Mark left Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:13). But there is no ground to believe that he was an apostate from the faith.

      Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
      For Demas hath forsaken me,.... Of this person; see Gill on Colossians 4:14. It does not appear by what is said in this clause, and in the following, that he entirely apostatized; he might forsake the apostle, and yet not forsake Christ and his interest, or make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience: his faith might be right, though low, and his love sincere, though not fervent; and through a fear of persecution, and loss of life, he might be tempted to leave the apostle, and withdraw from Rome, for his own safety; which though it was far from being commendable in him, yet may be accounted for in this state of frailty and imperfection, consistent with the grace of God; and it should seem that he afterwards was delivered from this temptation, and returned to the apostle, Colossians 4:14 for when those epistles were written, both Timothy and Mark, who are here wrote for, 2 Timothy 4:9 were with the apostle, Colossians 1:1 and Plm 1:1 and especially he ought to be thought very well of after all this, if Demas is only a contraction of Demetrius, and he is the same who is so much commended many years after this, in 3 John 1:12

      So Anon 10th Oct @ 23:22,

      It can not be said that Demas forsook Christ / turned away from Christ / turned away from the Christian faith. The original biblical texts do not support that interpretation.

      Furthermore, “having loved this present world” does not necessarily mean he turned to loving sin and debauchery, it can also mean seeking wealth, power, possessions, etc, something which the PBCC Exclusive Brethren are adept at.

      None leaving the PBCC Exclusive Brethren seek an ‘easier way’, the PBCC Exclusive Brethren see to that by dividing family, friends etc and cutting off the person.

      The PBCC Exclusive Brethren way, must be the ‘Hard Way’ if leaving and being outside is the ‘Easier Way’, yet, the ‘Hard Way’ ie the PBCC way, is not the Biblical way !

      The Bible does NOT teach –

      - separation from all other Christians / Christian Churches
      - separation from all non members
      - to refuse to eat or drink with all other Christians / or non members
      - to divide families if a person leaves the PBCC EB
      - that to leave the PBCC EB is to leave Christianity
      - all other Christians are in error
      - the PBCC EB are the only ones with the ‘truth’
      - the PBCC EB is ‘The Assembly’

      All these things and much more are taught in PBCC EB written ‘ministry’ they are ‘Not’ taught in Gods Word the Bible

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  5. Anon 23.22...I care what Ian thinks as he expresses himself in a very clear and erudite manner, unlike your crude and immature language. Also, it isn't so much what Ian thinks, as what he reports concerning the actions and statements of your discredited, hypocritical, Godless leaders.

    You exist very much in the present age with all the material advantages that you can accrue and yet have a fanciful notion that you are having a tough time. I think you should take note of those genuinely introverted sects, such as The Amish, who do live in another age, apart from the pleasures of the world. It does mean, however, for some, living partly communally in fairly spartan housing, being involved in farming and small business on a self sufficient scale, no large people carriers, no mobile phones, tablets or computers and no alcohol.

    Please don't delude yourself - you love the world, the comforts, the latest electronic and technical devices and the drugs very much. Getting together with your friends to drink copious amounts of alcohol, especially on The Sabbath, sounds quite a soft option to me and one that most Christians would regard with some distaste.

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  6. Hello Ian (I do give a monkey's uncle about what you say!) . I fully agree with all you say. I was merely observing that not being a member of CT will not disturb the CC

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    1. The Questioner: You are course right. The CC will have no interest in this. All it is is an indication of isolationism. Or is it their own deceived but perceived superiority?

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  7. I detect the anonymous voice of the cult in the shape of Leonardo; previously we had "a flying German sausage", now "a monkey's uncle" and, somewhat distastefully, "a rat's arse". Leonardo/PBCC Anon's gift for language is on a par with his misinterpretation of The Scriptures. However, he has made an arse (rat's, or otherwise) of himself, yet again, as he is so clearly out of his depth.

    I detect a thread of sado masochism running through the Exclusive Brethren (PBCC Ltd) in that belief has to be hard and "of the salt". This is a strange and unhealthy preoccupation. Unfortunately, we have seen the sadistic side of the EB (PBCC) in the way in which they treat people who disagree with their discredited doctrines.

    Of course, as has already been commented upon, the EB (PBCC) don't have a very hard time as they focus their lives on business, materialism, possessions and those awful devices that are the result of research in "Godforsaken Universities"; all this soothed by the spirit of intoxication.

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  8. I think that the Charity Commission in England may well take note that the PBCC doesn't at the moment ally itself with the Churches Together scheme in Horsforth or elsewhere. The Charity Commission certainly knows that the PBCC describes itself as a 'mainstream church', and they are currently actively monitoring the PBCC and looking for 'culture change' within the organisation.

    I think it's likely that the PBCC doesn't really know what characterises a mainstream church. I've just returned from the Holy Communion service in our parish church and I noted several aspects of the way we conduct ourselves in this congregation that may be difficult for the PBCC to emulate.

    Anyone who comes to the service is made welcome and invited to sit wherever they like. There is no dress code or gender separation. If the visitor is a member of another Christian church they are welcome to participate in the Eucharist. If they have come just to observe, that is also fine. Everyone, visitor and member alike, is invited to stay and share tea and coffee after the service. Once a month people can come to breakfast with us before the service.

    This very ordinary parish church has about two hundred members and works cooperatively with local people and other churches to serve the wider community. In the Churches Together scheme we are currently participating with others in planning and providing a shared Christmas day lunch for people who will be on their own or who can't afford special catering then; we support and work for the local Credit Union to provide accessible loans to people in need; we work with other churches in providing food for a local food bank; we are about to run an 'Introduction to Christianity' course for anyone who may be interested; we share our premises with all kinds of educational enterprises and have a church primary school which has open enrolment ... and lots more.

    A neighbouring church I know, in a deprived area, works with over four hundred drug and alcohol addicts, offering professional counselling and liaising effectively with social services, providing meals and a food bank and opportunities to work in the church allotment and elsewhere.

    It's difficult for the PBCC to behave like that. Their whole emphasis is separation, both ecclesiastically and personally - for example they aren't even willing to eat and drink with non-members. The Charity Commission knows all this and is aware that that kind of 'hauteur' doesn't fit with British values, let alone the Christian emphasis of loving your neighbour as you love yourself.

    It will be interesting to see whether, under the watchful eye of the Charity Commission, the PBCC is able to learn and change into the kind of church that can properly be called 'mainstream'. For everyone's sake, I hope that this will happen.

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    1. Sounds very similar to our Church. I am also impressed by the sense of reverence, devotion and - especially - joy which mark the congregation as quite different from the EB. We welcomed two new members this morning and most weeks we see people who have never attended before. They are all made most welcome. The other big difference is of course that we are free from man made ministry. The only words quoted are from Scripture. If we have the Word of God, why do we need the ravings of "these great men!!" The experience is completed by meeting in a building which has been consecrated - quite important I feel.

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    2. A sense of Reverence and Devotion is part of the natural Character of Man, but doesn't include the Holy Spirit of God
      which is found present only in The Assembly.

      The Holy Spirit has long departed from the darkness which has come in.

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    3. Anonymous 09.20
      How do you know since you are forbidden to enter any church outside of the Exclusive Brethren?
      There are many who post here who would beg to differ.
      By the way do you consider the Holy Spirit was pleased and present at the Exclusive Brethren meeting on Saturday afternoon 25 July 1970. Another spirit was present certainly.

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    4. Anonymous of 17 October 2014 09:20,

      In John 3:8 Jesus likens the Holy Spirit to the wind, which blows where it wills. It is quite a telling metaphor. It implies, among other things, that the Holy Spirit is not restricted, and we cannot pretend to know where he will or will not be acting. To say that the Holy Spirit is found in only one denomination is to claim more than anyone could possibly know, and is like telling the wind where it is supposed to blow. In other words, pretentious and futile.

      Your statement contradicts the experience of billions of Christians, and it also sounds a little bit blasphemous. Why would the Holy Spirit be confined to such a tiny unholy spot as an Exclusive Brethren meeting? I have never been in any place that I found so morally defiling as a Brethren meeting. Hardly the sort of place where I would expect the Holy Spirit to be confined. I can expand on that if you want to know what I mean.

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    5. Nobody is insisting you need to attend Ian. Go to your own church, but you will not find the Holy Spirit there.
      You don't belong there and never will.

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    6. That's a fine 'Christian' outlook if I ever saw one!

      Having left of my own accord, I wish that the PBCC would accept that I don't 'belong' in the 'assembly'. Why do they continue to pursue leavers? Threaten leavers? Keep leavers under surveillance? Disrupt ex-member's funerals?

      If they left us alone, we might consider offering them the same courtesy.

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    7. From the comments above by Anon 17 October 09:20 & Anon 17 October 12:25, the intention originates out of a desire to restrict the movements of the Holy Spirit to just within the PBCC EB.

      That is an entirely unbiblical unchristian position to take and can not be supported by any scripture in Gods Word the Bible

      The unwarranted and unscriptural arrogance of trying to restrict the Holy Spirit to within the PBCC EB is one of a list of heresies the PBCC EB practice

      Gods Word says

      Acts 2:38 – “And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”

      - The only thought of restriction in that verse is that the Holy Spirit is only for those that believe in Christ, but the gift is towards ALL who believe, not just PBCC EB

      John 3:8 – “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

      - There is no restriction evident in that verse at all, the Spirit of God can not be restricted because God is supreme over all and omnipotent

      2 Timothy 2 19 “Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his.”

      - No restriction in this verse either because it is only the Lord who knows those who are His, certainly not the PBCC EB

      1 Corinthians 12 - “4 But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; 6 and there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all. 7 But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit.etc etc “

      - No restriction here either, in fact 1 Corinthian 12 explains how the Spirit operates, in multiple different ways. You, the PBCC EB, might not like a particular operation or gift of the Spirit but you can’t restrict the Spirit

      Ephesians 4:4 - There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.”

      - No restrictions there either. but PBCC EB have separated themselves apart from the One Body

      Lastly,

      You Anon 17 October 09:20 & Anon 17 October 12:25 are utterly condemned by your own PBCC EB contradictions, hypocrisy, double speak and lies !!

      Your own PBCC EB website says this –

      Quote
      DO BRETHREN BELIEVE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE SAVED?
      No, not at all. The Brethren believe the Lord knows those that are His, and everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10v13). They believe there are many true believers along with the Brethren who will be eternally with Christ in heaven.
      End Quote

      - So your own PBCC EB corporate website claims that there are many true believers in Christ other than the Brethren !

      - The Holy Spirit is integral to belief in Christ as we have seen in the above quotes from Gods Word, you cant have one without the other !

      - Yet we now have PBCC EB supporters on this site now trying to restrict the Holy Spirit to just within the PBCC EB

      - Your contradicting your own propaganda !

      - We know the above website quote is not what you really believe because we know you separate from ALL other Christians and Christian Churchs refusing fellowship, worship & communion with such and refusing to eat or drink with such. But you make the website statement trying to hoodwink the public !

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    8. I detect a spoof is at work here, but have to admit it cracks me up everytime Ian or Rev get a hold of tbe bait.

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    9. Anon 20th Oct 21:59, No

      Sadly and frighteningly, what has been said by Exclusive Brethren PBCC supporters (members) Anon 17 October 09:20 & Anon 17 October 12:25 are not spoofs but actually what Exclusive Brethren are taught !

      See the following from a former Universal Leader Man of God James Taylor Senior

      JT Volume 73 page 78
      JT Quite so. The systems have not got it; that is really the truth. They have not got the service of God, because they have not developed faith; they have returned to the idea of sight, and systematic things according to man's ways; such as Presbyterianism and Baptists and so forth. They have given up the idea of faith, and they have given up the idea of the Spirit of God. It is a terrible thing to think of, but it is really the truth, and it is making way for the terrible apostasy that is coming in, which the apostle speaks of in the epistle to the Thessalonians.

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    10. The way the supporters of some religious denominations try to blacken all other denominations is very like the way some supporters of a political party try to blacken all rival parties. It only convinces those who are already convinced, and it disgusts everyone else.

      Delete
    11. Another very sectarian saying of JT was, “Were we to go into the different churches in Christendom we should find that Christ is not there.” (Volume 17 Page 190). I have two objections to this. First, I don’t believe he ever tried, so he wouldn’t know. He is just making it up. Secondly, for as long as he and his sect retain some profession of Christianity, they are as much a part of Christendom as any other denomination. An isolated part, but still a part, and in many ways a worldly part at that.

      Delete
  9. When faced with an extensive catalogue of harm and detriment, the PBCC continue to duck out of the simplest dialogue at the earliest opportunity. Behaviour that flies in the face of the agreement they made this year with the Charity Commission. We hear of more, very recent, disfellowshipping in the most straitened of circumstances, so where is this 'mainstream church' compassion?

    I'm sorry but feeding hungry fire fighters cuts nothing for me. The wearing of a 99p Hi-Viz jacket creates the thinnest of veneers which hopefully those in authority recognise. Meanwhile, those they have wronged so badly continue to seek some sort of justice.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Seeking justice? Justice can be yours through Jesus Christ....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'Justice can be yours through Jesus Christ'

      Mmmm, is that why the PBCC consistently resort to the use of lawyers? Spurious claims of 'defamation', 'breach of copyright, 'custody of children'. I guess Jesus doesn't deal with that sort of thing?

      Delete
    2. Jesus taught that outcasts are included in the 'banquet' in the kingdom of heaven.

      The PBCC/Hales Exclusive Brethren make everyone outside their community an outcast.

      People who are accepted by God and welcomed into his kingdom are rejected by the PBCC.

      Delete
    3. Dear Anon 12th Oct @ 22:22

      Your comment clearly implies that its wrong to seek justice, wrong to tell the truth, wrong to expose the PBCC EB for who they really are and that all things will be solved by coming to faith in Christ.

      Do you not know that Christ through His Word, the Bible, teaches persons to seek justice, tell the truth and expose false teaching ?

      All you’ve done in your attempt to defend PBCC EB is present a fallacy and a gross misrepresentation of the Bible. At every turn you wriggle and obfuscate to try to avoid being brought to justice for harm & detriment. Your excuse is straight from the cultists handbook, used to try to silence persons speaking to authorities and exposing truth. Its cynical spiritual abuse, as it twists scripture resulting in damage to the Christian faith and a persons faith.

      I am a Christian & Gods Word the Bible instructs me to rebuke, convict & expose false teaching and those who twist His Word (Ephesians 5, Colossians 2, Titus 1, 2 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 2, etc)

      Gods Word does teach forgiveness is through faith in Christ, ‘But’ only after full repentance is made by the sinner. For PBCC EB this means repentance made by those creating harm & detriment. However, ‘No’ genuine, real, truthful repentance has been made, because the sin of harm & detriment ‘Still Continues’ !. Yet the biblical apostle Paul says in Romans 6 – “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

      Let me explain further,

      The PBCC EB sometimes say they are forgiven because they’ve been before the Lord, or say a contrived partial sorry for some actions, yet then ‘Continue’ in the sin of harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !. PBCC EB members consistently intimidate those seeking to expose the truth and members lie, obfuscate and mislead in an attempt to evade being brought to justice. That’s not repentance !.PBCC EB signed up to a code of conduct through UK Charity Commission in Jan 2104, but then ‘Continue’ in the sin of harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !, that’s calculated wilful deception !

      More importantly,

      Even if true repentance was evident (which it isn’t), that still doesn’t let PBCC EB escape justice from authorities re issues of harm & detriment, especially those that breach laws, court agreements or Charity Commission agreements. Trying to hide behind Christ to escape justice from the authorities, will not work, Gods Word, the bible is again instructive –

      Romans 13:1-14
      Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

      Luke 11:42
      “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

      Proverbs 24:24-25
      Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.

      Proverbs 21:15
      When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.

      Isaiah 1:17
      Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

      Proverbs 21:3
      To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

      Delete
    4. Silly PBCC cult spending all that money on lawyers to defend the indefensible, through legal entanglement, when it needn't have cost a penny; especially as they are, apparently, in such a favoured "position:"

      Delete
    5. Anonymous12 October 2014 22:22

      Seeking justice? Justice can be yours through Jesus Christ....

      The hypocrisy in that statement is amazing when the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren have such a litigious history. But yes, Jesus is 100% just and justice will be done by Him at the right time. But do remember PBCC that forgiveness is based on repentance from sins.

      Delete
    6. Dear Anon 12th Oct @ 22:22

      Your comment clearly implies that its wrong to seek justice, wrong to tell the truth, wrong to expose the PBCC EB for who they really are and that all things will be solved by coming to faith in Christ.

      Do you not know that Christ through His Word, the Bible, teaches persons to seek justice, tell the truth and expose false teaching ?

      All you’ve done in your attempt to defend PBCC EB is present a fallacy and a gross misrepresentation of the Bible. At every turn you wriggle and obfuscate to try to avoid being brought to justice for harm & detriment. Your comment is an excuse straight from the cultists handbook, used to try to silence persons speaking to authorities and exposing truth. Its cynical spiritual abuse, as it twists scripture resulting in damage to the Christian faith and a persons faith.

      I am a Christian & Gods Word the Bible instructs me to rebuke, convict & expose false teaching and those who twist His Word (Ephesians 5, Colossians 2, Titus 1, 2 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 2, etc)

      Gods Word does teach forgiveness is through faith in Christ, ‘But’ only after full repentance is made by the sinner. For PBCC EB this means repentance made by those creating harm & detriment. However, ‘No’ genuine, real, truthful repentance has been made, because the sin of harm & detriment ‘Still Continues’ !. Yet the biblical apostle Paul says in Romans 6 – “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

      Let me explain further,

      The PBCC EB sometimes say they are forgiven because they’ve been before the Lord, or say a contrived partial sorry for some actions, yet then ‘Continue’ in the sin of harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !. PBCC EB members consistently intimidate those seeking to expose the truth and members lie, obfuscate and mislead in an attempt to evade being brought to justice. That’s not repentance !.PBCC EB signed up to a code of conduct through UK Charity Commission in Jan 2104, but then ‘Continue’ in the sin of harm & detriment. That’s not repentance !, that’s calculated wilful deception !

      More importantly,

      Even if true repentance was evident (which it isn’t), that still doesn’t let PBCC EB escape justice from authorities re issues of harm & detriment, especially those that breach laws, court agreements or Charity Commission agreements. Trying to hide behind Christ to escape justice from the authorities, will not work, Gods Word, the bible is again instructive –

      Romans 13:1-14
      Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

      Luke 11:42
      “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

      Proverbs 24:24-25
      Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.

      Proverbs 21:15
      When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.

      Isaiah 1:17
      Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

      Proverbs 21:3
      To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

      Delete
    7. I really feel sorry for Rev...
      Must be awful to be in constant conflict 24 / 7 The conscience is not to be ignored.
      Jesus said, "Come to me all ye who labour and I will give you rest"
      So give-up Rev and allow him to untie all those knots of confusion in you.

      Trix

      Delete
    8. Dear Trixie

      I don't think the EB/PBCC cult have much of a conscience, otherwise they would not sow such a mess of lies, half truths and contradictions; however, the empty harvest will follow.

      I don't think PBCC members can be very happy, or otherwise they would not need to depend so much on stimulants.

      No offence!

      Delete
    9. I've come late to this discussion and pick up the comment "but doesn't include the Holy Spirit of God which is found present only in The Assembly.". I perceive this asserts that the Holy Spirit is only present in and amongst the Halesian Exclusive Brethren, despite the author referring to Him as 'which' rather than 'Who', which indeed suggests the author doesn't have much acquaintance with Him.

      Bigger than that is wondering how this heresy started when The Bible clearly shows us the Holy Spirit is given to all who believe as the paracletos - the comforter, the one called alongside. Then experientially we see His activity in many places, many churches and many individual believers lives. How can a belief system which so contradicts the Bible claim (in public) to be based on it? The level of self deception frightens me.

      Delete
    10. Theophilus,

      It is not difficult to surmise how this heresy started. It has been obvious for the last 60 years that many of the Brethren’s beliefs and teachings were merely invented by the leaders, probably for purposes of controlling their followers. Verses from the Bible are sometimes selected as an afterthought in order to lend a spurious air of authority to their dictates.

      This pretentious idea of the Holy Spirit being found only among the Hales Brethren is as good an example as any. The purpose seems to be to persuade the Hales Brethren to stay where they are, and from that point of view it doesn’t matter whether the doctrine is true or false, scriptural or unscriptural, orthodox or heretical, pious or blasphemous. I think the Hales Brethren system of belief is so riddled with falsehood and pretence that the indoctrinated followers would hardly notice when yet another falsehood is foisted upon them.

      But those who have lived all their lives among the Hales Brethren cannot expound this pretentious idea with any credibility, because they are not in a position to know from experience whether there is any truth in it. I wonder why that does not occur to them.

      Delete
  11. Wrest the scriptures to your own destruction Rev. Not doing you or anyone else any good whatsoever is it? No, far from it.
    Wickedness is walking by your side and has become your companion.

    Well, You ought to be thoroughly ashamed of what you are doing. You have known what is right and good, but have chosen to sit in the seat of scorners and persecute the saints with whom God is pleased.

    Wash your robes and present yourself to the priests without seeking to justify yourself.

    Leonardo J Octavianus

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Leo
      Another totally meaningless worthless contribution. Debate the scripturally based contribution Brother Rev has made. Sorry I forgot . The EB don't go by scripture any more!

      Delete
  12. Actually, I find The Rev's scriptural comments to be very interesting. I think he is far more likely to help folk come to a knowledge of the bible than anything LJO puts out; especially as the latter appears to muddle his mission with being rather an unfunny clown.

    Leonardo, I do think you need to take a long look in the mirror as you support a position that has been the cause of family destruction, mental breakdown, financial impoverishment, loss of home and job, alcoholism, child abuse, child abduction; the list goes on and on and... worst of all... has led some of those persecuted to take their own lives. Now that is a very wicked position and I think you need to get right rather than goad The Rev, and others, with your persecution, mischief making and lack of Christianity. You appear to be a Saul rather than a Paul.

    You must be very gifted to know the mind of God (isn't that a blasphemy?) However, I do not think God can be pleased with those who support the harm and destruction listed here. Saints? I don't think so! Your arrogance is astounding, but then, you are only bent on mischief making and, as such, are a sad and destructive person.

    No offence!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Humanistic statement..

      "In order for evil to prevail it is only necessary for good men to do nothing" A somewhat warped sentiment not essentially rooted in the person of Christ, but rather the sentiments of man's sense of justice or to blame others.

      The truth is - All are responsible as individuals and the responsibility of the evil doer is not diminished and will be accounted for at the end.

      Furthermore, who is good? God is good. If so called good men do nothing, then how can they be called good? Indeed they are not good, but called to repent in this day of grace.

      Delete