Tuesday, 17 June 2014

Are the Hales Exclusive Brethren to be considered a mainstream Church?

The PBCC have often recently professed to be a mainstream Church yet they fail to engage with non or ex-EB in a rather exclusive fashion.


  1. It has always struck me as strange that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren now refer to themselves as a mainstream church.

    I don't think the term was used in the nineteenth century, but I'm certain that were he alive today the Exclusive Brethren founder, J N Darby, would not be pleased to see that his successors describe the Exclusive Brethren in this way.

    From their start in the late 1820s in Dublin the Brethren were a breakaway sect, and in the late 1840s, when J N Darby chose to take his followers down the Exclusive (in contrast to 'Open') path, they became completely, and rather vehemently, cut off from any kind of regular contact with other forms of organised Christianity.

    It's not far-fetched to say that in 1848 the Exclusive Brethren separated themselves from mainstream churches including mainstream Brethrenism. As far as I know, they still don't engage in any ecumenical activity, though a couple of their senior members in the UK did petition a bishop who sits in the House of Lords, asking for his support over the Charity Commission matter.

  2. Lets see shall we - I shall organise for somebody random to turn up at their gates of their 'church' in ********, and see what the response is.....

    In my opinion, if they are mainstream, that makes their actions even worse....as until now, I had ruled them out as being 'christian' in any way shape or form....may have to have a re-think..

  3. While the answer provided above seems to me to be very narrow, and excludes all Protestants(!), the reality is that, no, of course they're not a mainstream church.

    They look like cult. We know it, they know it, but they just won't admit it.

  4. The PBCC aka Exclusive Brethren could not be classed as a “mainstream Christian Church” because the group practices doctrines and actions which are outside of, and not practiced by, genuine mainstream Christianity.

    Such as -

    - Complete separation in every aspect from every other Christian Church, therefore separation from the Body of Christ. This is contrary to the Bible

    - Members not allowed to go to any other Christian Church outside of the PBCC Exclusive Brethren, so no interaction with the Body of Christ. This is contrary to the Bible

    - Members not allowed to have communion, fellowship, worship with any other Christian in any other Christian Church. This is contrary to the Bible

    - Members not allowed to eat or drink with non members, nor with any Christian who is a non member, nor with any relative with is a non member. This is contrary to the Bible

    - The group teaches that if persons leave it, they lose Christianity, they lose salvation and can not be a Christian outside of the group. This is contrary to the Bible

    - The group teaches that any Christian church who has any clergy, pastors, elders etc is in error. This is contrary to the Bible

    - The group teaches that a former group leader James Taylor Junior, who was an alcoholic womanizer found in bed with another mans wife, is a “pure” man and “our beloved”. Teaching which is contrary to the Bible.

    - Members must follow the rules of current and previous “universal leaders”, these edicts an addition to the Bible, so therefore not required to be Christian, most of them are in direct contravention of the Bible

    - Persons leaving are divided from and separated from family and friends remaining in the group. The group teaches persons who leave are apostate and iniquitous, even if they remain Christian and just leave the group to go to a different Christian Church. This is not supported by factual reality and is contrary to the Bible

    - The group teaches that “JN Darby recovered the full thought of Christianity” and of “apostolic succession” from the Biblical Apostle Paul to JN Darby through to successive leaders such as FE Raven, James Taylor Senior, James Taylor Junior, John Hales and current leader Bruce Hales. None of this is supported by factual reality or the Bible.

    - The group teaches that young babes in arms, toddlers and young children can partake of the Bread and Loaf at the Lords Table in Communion, with no profession or understanding of faith required. Teaching which is contrary to the Bible.

    - Members who leave the group and go to genuine Christian Churches where they take full part in worship, fellowship and communion with the rest of the Body of Christ, are told that “there is a way back” and that they have “walked away from their privileges at the Table” and “walked away from their inheritance and birthright”. Teaching which is not based on fact or reality and is contrary to the Bible

    - Mention is made of the Gospel of Christ but then additional requirements are added to it which makes it a “Gospel Plus message”. In order to become saved and in the fellowship of Gods Son Christ Jesus, members must separate from all non members and the rest of the Body of Christ and carry out the rules listed above. This is contrary to the Bible.

    The Exclusive Brethren PBCC practice all of these listed points and many more. Genuine mainstream Christian Churches do not practice these points. The Exclusive Brethren PBCC are NOT a mainstream Christian Church and never will be as long as they continue to practice what’s listed above

    The list above clearly shows that Exclusive Brethren denigrate the rest of the Body of Christ, all other Christian Churches and all other Christians. This also means they denigrate the work of Christ in all other Christians too !

    For PBCC Exclusive Brethren to attempt to claim to be “mainstream Christians”, when they practice what’s listed above, is an insult to the Body of Christ and an insult to Christ himself and the work of His Holy Spirit

    1. I think the PBCC are very much a mainstream church.
      All main denominations vary in the way to they practice or understand faith, so I disagree with most of the comments here.
      The PBCC are clearly mainstream because they adhere to the principles set out in the bible and do not seek to dilute them to find an easier way.
      Nobody is going to deter them from sticking to the core beliefs of the Christian faith. Jesus said - "I am the way, the truth and the life"
      It is my belief the PBCC hold fast to those words and will not give them up.

    2. The problem is the PBCC do not stick to the core beliefs of the Christian faith, they do not practise simple Christian beliefs of charity, compassion and humility unless it is a front to promote their personal gain. Other denominations hold fast to these quoted words, above, but without causing harm and detriment to others..The PBCC Ltd have all the hallmarks of a classic cult in their unseemly behaviour, such as dependence on alcohol, for example. How many other congregations of mainstream churches save their main drinking day for the Sabbath, or are intoxicated as they go from meeting to meeting? Filled with the spirit, but the Johnny Walker variety. How many other mainstream churches follow the "infallible" leadership of discredited, ill educated, power controlling, money grabbing drunks? The answer to these rhetorical questions are, of course, none. Leaving aside small groupings of adherents of cult or "charismatic" leaders, numbering in the hundreds, in terms of abusive practise, the PBCC Ltd rank slightly above The Church of Scientology and beneath the JW's. The PBCC Ltd waddle and quack!

    3. Anon 18:37 May I ask you a some questions to enable you to provide / state your source of evidence?

      1: Do you personally practice the "core beliefs" of the Christian faith?
      2: Haven't you noticed all those events the PBCC run, food distribution and numerous charities they support?
      3: Do you support a charity, giveaway food or help your neighbour?
      4: Are you aware of just how many Christian denominations tolerate completely substandard behaviour, including gay marriage which is a mockery of God himself and genuine practice of Christianity?
      5: Have you actually been in a PBCC car or people carrier with "intoxicated" people as they drove from "meeting to meeting" and if so, did you actually see the brand label of the "spirit" they drank?
      6: Regarding your assumption of PBCC dependence on alcohol, have you actually seen any doctor's / their hospital records?
      7: Have you ever asked yourself where you rank amongst mankind?
      8: Do you think you are better than the rest of men?
      9: What has their choice of education got to do with you and has your own education made you superior to others or increased your level of worthiness before God?
      10: Have you ever seen a "drunk" member of the PBCC "grabbing" some money or is this all again a complete figment of your imagination?
      11: Are you happy with your own shaky position and if so, why do you feel compelled to interfere with the happiness of the PBCC / other folks?

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    4. Forgive me, everyone, for going off topic.

      Leonardo J Octavianus, your presence here again has reminded me that you hoped to meet with me once you'd finished travelling 'in June'. Feel free to ask Garth Christie for my home address and drop me a line. We could meet at the British Museum or the Ashmolean in Oxford perhaps?

      One small comment about your posting above. I wonder if you'd consider rephrasing points 7 and 8 so that they are more inclusive:

      7: Have you ever asked yourself where you rank amongst humankind?

      8: Do you think you are better than other people?

    5. My answers to LJO's list of questions above as being an Exclusive Brethren member until 32 years of age when I decided to leave and walked away losing at least half of my business, all my family and most of my 'friends'.

      1. Yes.
      2.Yes, but only since 2012 and only because they trumpet it.
      3.All three, but never felt the need to brag about it. To me it's normal.
      4.Yes. They also claim to be 'mainstream'.
      5.Many times. I have also seen two front row brothers consume a whole bottle of Johnnie Walker Red Label in a meeting room car park too, before a fellowship meeting. Murray Walker of Leicester was one of them.
      6. I do know that my PBCC brother-in-law passed away within the last two years following an epileptic fit brought on by his chronic dependence on alcohol. I have also been told by Focus Learning Trust teachers of young PBCC fathers attending The Priory for detox.
      7.I am part of humankind anyway but ranking? For what? Intelligence? Sporting prowess? Deceit? Wealth?
      8. No
      9. Their choice of education is not really my concern, but their influence in preventing me from going to university has impacted hugely on my earning capability in life. I will never know what I may have achieved.
      10. I have seen drunk brethren secreting manila envelopes of cash given to them about their person before passing through Heathrow Airport security. The envelopes were collected on arrival at destination after clearing immigration.
      11. Shaky position? I am saved for eternity, thank God. I am financially secure, as is my 37 year marriage and none of my homes are falling down.

    6. Thank you, so much, Anon 09.31 for saving me the job of replying to Leonardo's tantrum of naive and silly questions about what one actually "saw", and so on. He clearly does not consider a body of evidence to be applicable in law. However, once again, he has been hoisted by his own petard, as you were able to provide the proof he so earnestly sought. Brilliant!

      Incidentally, I was told by relatives that if you had lit a match at three day meetings they had attended the place would have exploded due to the alcohol content thereabouts. Apparently, the stench was awful! However, I didn't actually SEE (or smell) this, I am so pleased to say, so I cannot possibly comment!

      I am glad Joan went off topic here because I am minded that Leonardo has been busy with business trips but did say he would meet her for lunch. She has mentioned some fantastic places. Sadly, Joan, I fear you will be jilted. I think the flaming month of June will pass and Leonardo will not take up this kind offer; possibly, because he may not exist, as an entity, but might be a sort of PBCC Ltd composite figure (of fun).

  5. I have yet to come across a mainstream church that treats it's members as if they are dead should they decide to leave. Despite the Charity Commission's stipulation that ex-members should be treated no differently than any other member of the general public, why is it that two sisters I have in the PBCC still refuse to speak to me 25 years after I left?

    I also don't know of any other mainstream church that would gate crash the funeral of one of it's ex-members and chase grieving friends and relatives away from the graveside. I was there, I witnessed it and I have never as much as received an apology.

    Are you aware that child molesters within the PBCC are protected by the hierarchy? Proper mainstream churches are addressing that sort of behaviour. Remember what Jesus said to people who offend the little ones. Another PBCC member was recently jailed for killing someone. He went down still protesting his innocence. Call that Christian????

  6. Hi Anon 18:06 - just out of passing interest, have you actually got any proof of the two accusations you make in your last paragraph, regarding child molesters and someone who murdered someone. is this current or historical? What are the facts?
    just interested to get the "meat on the bones" so to speak.

    1. Just for your passing interest, I married a PBCC girl who was molested by her leading brother father as a young girl, I do know of a very suspicious unsolved murder case in Plymouth, Devon involving PBCC, but I was actually referring to PBCC Raymond Storry of Nottinghamshire whose killing of an innocent man by driving at 80mph in a 30mph limit is very well documented online. Testament to a cult which is careering out of control.

      Disturbingly, I assume you believe the burial saga without questioning it?

      There you have it, meat on the bones and the giblets as well.

    2. In the small meeting, I attended as a child, one of the married brothers, with his own son, confessed to another that he was attracted to boys. Nowadays we would say he was a paedophile, or had such tendencies. I cannot say, however, if he put his proclivities into practice (Leonardo will be pleased with this honest admission!) There were only about four brothers in this rural meeting; this gives rise to a substantial percentage, in this instance.

  7. To anonymous 17 June 23.38

    No mention was made by anonymous 17 June 18.06 of murder. A person could be killed by a speeding (and possibly intoxicated) driver. This would be culpable homicide.

  8. I would not consider them any kind of church at all. They are the Hales family business. And the ordinary members, who are ripped off and exploited right, left and centre, are their stock in trade. If BDH dies tomorrow, another Hales will succeed him - it is their business and too valuable to lose to someone else. Apart from Symington [how did that evil creature get in?] you can see the clear line of descent - JT Snr, son JT Jnr, son -in - law Bruce Hailes, John Hales, so BD Hales. Wonderful how God selects from the same family line all the time. For goodness sake, EB, waken up - you have been and continue to be, taken for a complete ride!

  9. Murder was not mentioned, but it was intended to be a slur.
    It is better to state facts (if any) before making accusations.

    1. Ask around and see if you can find out who murdered PBCC widow Esther Soper in Plymouth in 1976.


    2. I have just been withdrawn from and had to go to the Priory for alcoholism when I was in fellowship.

      I know of at least 3 people who went there for the same reason. I have met them at the Priory in aftercare!!

      Can you disprove that Leonardo? I don't think so!

    3. Would you like to come in here, Leonardo, with a word, in season...No? Thought not...

  10. It horrifies me that EB leaders for the past so many decades have taught and encouraged their flock to speak with forked tongue - lies and truth-twisting just seem to be common practice in the group these days. And PBCC members individually are just so completely full of unexamined BS, it's embarrassing!

    An example relating to this particular blog topic is the way PBCC members insist on one hand that they're a mainstream church and very similar to other churches... yet they condemn, judge, reject, exclude and flee from ALL of those churches and every single one of their members. HEB/PBCC members have not been allowed to attend other church services for many many decades - they haven't a clue what the reality of mainstream church life is like... yet they're happy in Jesus' name to separate viciously and ruthlessly from all of it.

    I'm not too fond of self-help gurus generally, but Wayne Dyer said the following, which I think is really pertinent to the way HEB look down on everyone they've excluded themselves from over the past 55 years, i.e. the entire nonHEB world:

    "The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about."

    I'm guessing the HEB response to that would be some waffle along the lines of: "Our leaders saw the pit of destruction into which the nonEB world was heading many years ago and we are blessed that their insight warned us to keep well free of the evil influence of every..bla,bla,bla. Be-lubbered JND saw how things would be in the 21st century [despite insisting the Rapture was imminent in the 1800s] and set us on the right path of separation. But we're still mainstreeam!"

    Ignorant destructive bollocks.

  11. Reading through this thread this morning, and paying particular attention to contributions which seem to come from the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren, I've realised that we are perhaps talking at cross purposes when we discuss what constitutes a 'mainstream' church.

    Would it be the case that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren interpret 'mainstream' theologically, and see themselves as in the 'mainstream' of Christian belief and practice because of their nineteenth century 'Recovery'?

    The rest of us probably understand 'mainstream' as meaning embracing the positive values of the society in which we live. In the UK at the moment the buzz words are 'social cohesion', 'no gender segregation', 'inclusivity' etc etc. Churches which are open to all-comers, which allow their premises to be used for community activities and events, which are inclusive of people of all classes, ethnicity, gender and sexuality, are therefore perceived as 'mainstream'. The detail of their theology or ecclesiology doesn't really apply; they just have to be people who demonstrate that they are actively serving and welcoming everyone in their local community - indeed, that they love their neighbour as they love themselves.

    Perhaps I can add that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren seem to be confused in the matter of their 'recovered' ecclesiology - in the sense that they think it's uniquely the right way to be a Christian community.

    The New Testament Book of Acts shows quite clearly that from the beginning in Jerusalem in the infant Christian community there was engagement, flexibility and diversity, not uniformity and exclusivity. They didn't stick exclusively to a separated, upper room, Aramaic-speaking clique with an inbred mentality who only read the Scriptures in Hebrew. They branched out soon after Pentecost to Samaria and Syrian Antioch and then beyond into Turkey and Europe, using a different version of the Scriptures (Greek) and a new language (also Greek).

    The impression the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren give is that they have rejected the vitality, flexibility and diversity of early, 'apostolic', Christian history, and for that reason they're not usually viewed as a mainstream church.

    1. Joan - May I refer to your comment in paragraph (4)
      "The PBCC seem to be confused in the matter of their recovered ecclesiology" What are you going on about now?

      Ecclesiology as far as I understand it, is a study of (1) mainly church architecture or (2) Theology as applied to the nature and study of the Christian church and so on.
      It's statements such as this, which shows just how confused some have become when the natural reasoning mind is out of control.

      Studying academia for sake of academia is neither being intelligent or of gain. It proves nothing. Proving nothing is nothing so to speak.
      It also reinforces the conviction that the study of such things at university is detrimental to moral judgement and definitely limits a persons development and creativity. Nonsensical springs to mind.
      I can thus assure you there is no confusion within the PBCC.

      Regarding your invite to meet me for a chat over lunch, I'm still away on a business trip. With all due respect, I think you need to simplify your view of the brethren and not be critical of these lovely people. They are on a path which may not be popular, but there are certain things we have to accept. Also your comment in paragraph (3) is not based on fact because we all know they are actively serving everyone in their community.
      Let's keep it factual.

      Well Joan - Maybe you are a little too busy trying to find fault instead of finding positives. You have known the brethren for many many years, so I believe you know better. I fear you have been damaged by some evil people who operate on this site to mislead and to harm. They will reap sorrow on sorrow in a day to come.

      The best way to understand the PBCC is to go along to a meeting and be ready to open your heart to God in a fresh way. Pride has to be cast into the fire where it belongs.

      Common sense is close to Christianity. Common sense is also intelligence. All the fitness God requireth is for you and I to feel our need of him. No need to study or take a course on how to do this at a Godforsaken university.

      Time to put the kettle on and have a few slices of toast and Marmalade.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    2. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      You appear greatly confused about Joan’s comment in her post at 18 June 10:07 in which she said –

      “Perhaps I can add that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren seem to be confused in the matter of their 'recovered' ecclesiology - in the sense that they think it's uniquely the right way to be a Christian community”

      Your response was to quote from the merriam-webster dictionary or such like, grasping at straws to ridicule Joan by whichever means you could. Joan can answer for herself but perhaps I may be able to help clear any of your confusion. Here is a proper biblical definition of Ecclesiology -

      It is the study of the church. The word Ecclesiology comes from two Greek words meaning "assembly" and "word" - combining to mean "the study of the church." The church is the assembly of believers who belong to God. Ecclesiology is crucial to understand God's purpose for believers in the world today. Some important issues in Ecclesiology are:

      What is the church?
      What is the purpose of the church?
      What is the importance of Christian baptism?
      What is the importance of the Lord's Supper / Christian Communion?
      What does the Bible say about the form of church government?

      Now we know what Ecclesiology means, lets look at Joan’s comment again -

      “Perhaps I can add that the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren seem to be confused in the matter of their 'recovered' ecclesiology - in the sense that they think it's uniquely the right way to be a Christian community”

      This means that –

      The PBCC EB teach and believe, they and they alone, have “recovered” (since the 1830’s through such as JN Darby, J Taylor, B Hales) - the church, the purpose of the church, baptism, the Lords Supper and church government. Their doctrine of this “recovery” is apparently the only uniquely right way to be a Christian Church (i.e. the one position doctrine).

      Problem is, that when persons (Christians & Non Christians), study biblical Ecclesiology, (ie what the Bible teaches) and compares it to the so called “Recovered Ecclesiology” of the PBCC EB, this so called “Recovery” is shown to be false

      Hope that helps

    3. LJO,

      I think you have misunderstood Joan’s post and have misjudged her in almost everything you have written. More than anyone who has ever contributed to this blog, she has made heroic efforts to find common ground with you and find positive ways of saying what is needed.

      She was pointing out that the Brethren’s habit of calling their doctrines and practice a “recovery” has misled them into thinking their style of church resembles a uniquely correct form that existed in Apostolic times: something that was lost and is now recovered, whereas the Acts and other historical sources show that from the beginning there was considerable diversity in the first assemblies, and all of them that we know about, I might add, were very different from today’s Exclusive Brethren assemblies. The word “recovery” seems to be used misleadingly to disguise the fact that EBism is a new religious movement, or what we might call a modern invention, something altogether unlike anything that existed in the early churches.

      Some bits of your post damage your own credibility, such as the bits where you accuse Joan of failing to look for what is positive, or where you imply that her mind is out of control, or where you give her a patronizing, self-righteous, opinionated, moral lecture, or where you say, “the study of such things at university is detrimental to moral judgement and definitely limits a person’s development and creativity,” (yes, you actually wrote that!) but you wrote one sentence that I entirely agree with, the bit that says, “Nonsensical springs to mind.”

    4. LJO......'at a Godforsaken university'

      One only hopes that phrase does not come back to haunt you, should you ever need professional medical care. We recall the recently struck off PBCC Doctor Mark Craddock who fell on his sword to protect the corrupt leadership who sent a young gay PBCC guy to him for chemical castration to 'cure' him of his homosexuality.

      Do feel free to comment on this well documented case. Did the Australian Medical council get it all wrong?

    5. 15:24 - Your little Pop at Leonardo all seems a bit OTT if I may say so...In fact, you seem a bit up-tight and robotic old fellow.
      Thought LJO was actually quite diplomatic for a change, but were you?

      I don't think the PBCC are confused and neither is LJO.
      These people just have their own ideas how to live a good Christian life and that's fine. Recovery, I think that's a positive word, not negative.
      Just look it up in the dictionary folks if you don't know the definition.
      Just checked it myself on Google and it's pretty well the study of anything to do with churches. It has various applications.
      You have a problem with that Mr Pop?

    6. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      Read your post at 13.55, are you genuinely for real !!

      Your comments could not get further from mainstream Christianity in theology or everyday practice, or what is biblically acceptable, yet you and the PBCC EB have tried to claim to the UK Parliament, Press and others that you are “a mainstream church” “that follows the bible”. There is complete total disconnect between what you and the PBCC EB claim and what the practices and doctrines really are !.

      Your comments about education, university, learning ecclesiology and theology, show utter contempt for using the gifts and mind that God has given us to use, to learn more about Him, the world He created and to help our fellow man.

      The hypocrisy of your comments knows no limits. Next time you need medicine from the doctor, use your car, fly on a plane, buy food from the shop, read a book, use a computer, use a mobile phone, drive on a road, heat your house, use clean water, etc etc, please consider the learning and education that was involved from talented persons, to allow you the privilege of having these things. Therefore, please refuse these things because you have such contempt for those who studied and used the talents that God gave them to allow them to create the things used in these activities.

      As for you and the PBCC EB’s contempt for studying & learning ecclesiology and theology, that’s understandable, because to do so quickly exposes the PBCC EB as a false representation of Christianity and a sect of worst kind, although this is easily exposed even without these courses.

      Your naivety about Church history is also exposed, as this passage explains -

      “The church has historically promoted education and the improvement of the mind. The Reformer John Calvin was a strong advocate for universal education, believing that every child should be trained in reading, writing, math, and grammar, as well as religion. Martin Luther taught that education was essential, “both to understand the Word of Scripture and the nature of the world in which the Word would take root.” The modern Sunday school movement began in 1780 when Robert Raikes began educating poor children who were otherwise overlooked by society. Most universities, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, and Cambridge, were founded by Christians as religious schools”

      You make a mockery & hypocrisy of recent PBCC EB pr publications too, which boasted about those historical members who had full university education (prior to 1960) and were able to help their fellow man.

      LJO you really are doing a great job of revealling the real PBCC EB and showing they really are a sectarian seperatist group of the worst damaging kind !

    7. I think Leonardo should spend more time on his school work and take up a recently PBCC approved past-time, such as off-road biking. This might help him attain a more peaceful and less obsessive mind set; it might also make him less aggressively obnoxious in his opinions to those who try and reason with him. He is way out of his depth, however, and one can't help but feel a little sorry for him.

      A teacher

    8. I am sorry to have to say this, but having thoroughly read this blog, the only person who misleads is, of course, the mischief making Leonardo (sensitivity prevents me from describing him as "evil"). LJO, of course, bandies such unpleasantness around like confetti. What goes around, comes around, Leonardo.

      We do not all know that the PBCC are serving everyone in the community. What we do know is that only for the past year, or so, the EB(PBCC) have arranged publicity driven events, serving fast food to the curious and local politicians, in a cynical attempt to curry favour and prove public "benefit". They do nothing without writing a glowing report to themselves, with photographs, on their tangled web site of deceit. They do not engage in outreach with their communities, the needy and destitute consistently, or in depth. The PBCC do as little as possible for the greatest publicity.

      Let's be factual, shall we, Leonardo/PBCC Propaganda ?

    9. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      Read your post at 13.55, are you genuinely for real !!

      Your comments could not get further from mainstream Christianity in theology or everyday practice, or what is biblically acceptable, yet you and the PBCC EB have tried to claim to the UK Parliament, Press and others that you are “a mainstream church” “that follows the bible”. There is complete total disconnect between what you and the PBCC EB claim and what the practices and doctrines really are !.

      Your comments about education, university, learning ecclesiology and theology, show utter contempt for using the gifts and mind that God has given us to use, to learn more about Him, the world He created and to help our fellow man.

      The hypocrisy of your comments knows no limits. Next time you need medicine from the doctor, use your car, fly on a plane, buy food from the shop, read a book, use a computer, use a mobile phone, drive on a road, heat your house, use clean water, etc etc, please consider the learning and education that was involved from talented persons, to allow you the privilege of having these things. Therefore, please refuse these things because you have such contempt for those who studied and used the talents that God gave them to allow them to create the things used in these activities.

      As for you and the PBCC EB’s contempt for studying & learning ecclesiology and theology, that’s understandable, because to do so quickly exposes the PBCC EB as a false representation of Christianity and a sect of worst kind, although this is easily exposed even without these courses.

      Your naivety about Church history is also exposed, as this passage explains -

      “The church has historically promoted education and the improvement of the mind. The Reformer John Calvin was a strong advocate for universal education, believing that every child should be trained in reading, writing, math, and grammar, as well as religion. Martin Luther taught that education was essential, “both to understand the Word of Scripture and the nature of the world in which the Word would take root.” The modern Sunday school movement began in 1780 when Robert Raikes began educating poor children who were otherwise overlooked by society. Most universities, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, and Cambridge, were founded by Christians as religious schools”

      Your comments even make a mockery & hypocrisy of recent PBCC EB pr publications too !, which boasted about those historical members who had full university education (prior to 1960) and were able to help their fellow man.

  12. Equivocation - aka Peeb-speak (with thanks to Wikipedia)

    Fallacious reasoning

    Equivocation is the use in a syllogism (a logical chain of reasoning) of a term several times, but giving the term a different meaning each time. For example:

    A feather is light.
    What is light cannot be dark.
    Therefore, a feather cannot be dark.

    In this use of equivocation, the word "light" is first used as the opposite of "heavy", but then used as a synonym of "bright" (the fallacy usually becomes obvious as soon as one tries to translate this argument into another language). Because the "middle term" of this syllogism is not one term, but two separate ones masquerading as one (all feathers are indeed "not heavy", but it is not true that all feathers are "bright"), this type of equivocation is actually an example of the fallacy of four terms.

    Semantic shift

    The fallacy of equivocation is often used with words that have a strong emotional content and many meanings. These meanings often coincide within proper context, but the fallacious arguer does a semantic shift, slowly changing the context by treating, as equivalent, distinct meanings of the term.


    In English language, one equivocation is with the word "man", which can mean both "member of the species, Homo sapiens," and "male member of the species, Homo sapiens." The following sentence is a well-known equivocation:

    "Do women need to worry about man-eating sharks?", in which "man-eating" is construed to mean a shark that devours only male human beings.


    "People testing for faster than light phenomena must not know it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light."

    Here, "impossible" is construed to mean that there's zero chance that relativity (the physics theory) is wrong. However, "it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light" is taught to mean that based on relativity, there's no way (hence "impossible") to travel faster than the speed of light.


    This occurs where the referent of a word or expression in a second sentence is different from that in the immediately preceding sentence, especially where a change in referent has not been clearly identified.


    All jackasses have long ears.
    Carl is a jackass.
    Therefore, Carl has long ears.

    Here the equivocation is the metaphorical use of "jackass" to imply a stupid or obnoxious person instead of a male donkey.

    "Nothing is better than"

    Margarine is better than nothing.
    Nothing is better than butter.
    Therefore, margarine is better than butter.

    This tactic is nothing new. Chaucer (1340? - 1400) described it well in 'The Pardoner's Tale' - not that the poor Peebs will have read this.

  13. You may well be right re the differing view PBCC members have as to their 'mainstreamness' Joan - good thinking. But they still seem to get a big fat mainstream NIL, whether scored on their historically-based theology or on their current social cohesion it seems to me.

    PS: I fear the reply from Anon 18 June 2014 10:35 re your likely jilting by LJO might be right on the button. But I think you might have already suspected... Dear me, having lunch with a figure made of PBCC-composite - suddenly I'm feeling a bit icky!

  14. Why the PBCC Exclusive Brethren are not a “mainstream Christian Church”

    Characteristics of an Aberrant Group

    Aberrant – Deviating from the standard, unusual, abnormal, departs substantially from the standard, distance from expected norms of theology

    So how does one differentiate between a genuinely sound, Christian group and one which is aberrant?

    There are central doctrinal and behavioural points that can be listed to illustrate the characteristics of aberrant groups. Not all aberrant groups will have ALL of these, nor will they have them in the SAME DEGREE. But these points can serve as RED FLAGS when evaluating a particular group.

    11 Points

    1. Brief, Sound Beginnings:
    Frequently these groups will begin with moderately sound doctrine. This however changes in order to rationalize the heavy commitment demanded of group members and to support the LEADERSHIP'S goals and ambitions. The personal desires, problems, idiosyncrasies and sins of the leader(s) begin to be expressed via changes in group practices and eventually in the doctrines of the group (1Tim 1:3-7).

    2. Devaluation of the Bible:
    This takes place either through emphasizing the leader's "revelations" over sound interpretation of the Bible or through vague or complex interpretations of Scripture. Often the interpretations will emphasize only certain verses consistent with the group's goals while negating others.
    Sound hermeneutics (proper methods of Biblical interpretation) is rarely taught. The "sheep" are considered to be "not smart enough" or "not interested" in this important and essential teaching (Acts 17:11; 2Tim 2:15; 2Pet 3:14-16).

    3. Fanaticism:
    "Faith teaching" is sometimes exemplified by refusing to see doctors for check-ups, throwing away insulin or quitting one's job to "enter a life of faith." Scriptural teaching concerning the stewardship of one's talents and money are tossed aside when they conflict with the leader's teachings or the furtherance of the group's goals (1Tim 5:23; Prov 6:6-11).

    4. Devaluation or Loss of Personal Choice:
    Personal choice is given up in deference to the leadership. One becomes and remains a small child when it comes to decision making. The leadership makes the significant and sometimes even small decisions for one's life (1Tim 2:5; Gal 6:4f).

    5. Closed System:
    Internal criticism is considered to be rebellion, a critical spirit or seen as causing division among the brethren. Outside criticism is called "persecution" or a "Satanic attack." Satan is given an over-abundance of credit.
    Most, if not all, of the individual's needs are met within the group. This eventually leads to the cutting off of significant outsiders (Gal 2:11-21; John 17:15-18; 1Cor 5:9f).

    Points 6 to 11 to follow

    1. Points 6 to 11

      6. Demanding Lifestyle: Strict adherence to the group's rules is required without consideration for cultural conditions. A communal setting often heightens the control but is not required (Col 2:18-23; 1Tim 4:1-5).

      7. Fear and Guilt:
      These emotions are contrived and used as primary motivaters. Members are told they will lose their salvation, hurt God, become a "nominal" Christian, or loose status within the group if they are disobedient. Ostracizing an uncooperative member is used to bring about obedience (Rom 8:1,15; 1John 4:15-18).

      8. Anti-intellectual: Experience = truth:
      One is merely socially and emotionally caught up into the beliefs of the church. There is very little use for apologetics or theology and a propositional view of reality. Questions concerning the group's belief system or actions are only tolerated in a token fashion and are strongly controlled by the group's leadership (Hos 4:6; Luke 2:46; Acts 15:1-29).

      9. Misplaced Responsibility:
      Your responsibility for a relationship with God is transferred to the authority figure or the organizational system. The FOCUS for the individual is not to find a clearer understanding of who God is but instead to do the will of God (as defined by the dysfunctional system) and obey the leadership (1Tim 2:5; Heb 4:14-16; 12:2; 1John 2:27).

      10. Salvation = Grace Plus:
      Works of some sort (obedience, evangelism, financial giving, etc.) are added to the free gift of salvation. A person's performance equates to their salvation and spirituality (Rom 4:4-6; 9:16; 11:6).

      11. Elitism:
      "WE HAVE THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL DIE WITH US." This attitude is evident in some special doctrine or way of life the group exhibits. All outside the group are considered non-Christians or at least inferior Christians (Prov 8:13; Mark 9:38-40; 2Cor 10:12-18).

      The Exclusive Brethren PBCC fit all these criteria, which further explains why they could not be considered a “mainstream Christian Church” as they have departed from expected norms and standards as set through the theology of the Bible and instead become aberrant

    2. Why do ye always resist the holy spirit? (Part 1)

    3. What about point twelve Rev?
      Would you also expand on 1 to 11
      to enlighten us all further?

      "Expected norms and standards"
      Expected norms and standards acceptable
      to this present evil world or to God?
      One can therefore deduce you are saying
      the world's ways are acceptable, so
      we had better go along with it.

      Some might not like to consider the PBCC a mainstream
      church because the truth they adhere to can cause us
      to be challenged and changed if accepted.
      Are you prepared to change Rev?

    4. Exclusive Brethren PBCC also fit all the criteria listed below, which further explains why they could not be considered a “mainstream Christian Church” !

      How to recognise if you are in a cultic group –

      14 Points

      1.Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them. Has someone replaced your own choices in life.

      Answer – Yes, you must obey what the Man of God, Universal leader says, both past and present, even if it is contrary to Scripture, the written ministry of “these great men” is authoritative

      2. Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples

      Answer - Yes, when persons leave rumours and character assassination are propagated to the members remaining, the true reasons why persons leave and where they have gone is not discussed. Its said that persons who leave have “gone into the world”, “despised the assembly”, “turned from the light”, “left the position”

      3. Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ.

      Answer – Yes, current and previous leaders teach that if you leave the group you have “left the assembly” and “can not be a true Christian if you leave”, true Christianity is only found within the group. Those persons outside of the group claiming to be Christian are “only superficial” or “nominal”. Only “we” the Exclusive Brethren are the “following the right path”, “there is only one position” for a true Christian to be in” (and we are it)

      4. If you want to leave are you being told their is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell.

      Answer – Yes, absolutely, the “Truth” is found only within the Exclusive Brethren, if you leave you have “left the light”, “left your birthright” and “left where God has placed you” and left the “only true position”. Only in the Exclusive Brethren will you have the “recovery of the truth” and “the truth of the assembly”

      5. Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard

      Answer, Yes, additional non biblical rules are put in place to ensure the groups norms are met, with scripture twisted and context removed, allowing additional rules to be invented and enforced

      Points 6 to 10 to follow

    5. Points 6 to 10

      6. Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple. Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies.

      Answer, Yes, absolutely, members must use the language of the group even to how and when God, Jesus and the Father are addressed, to go outside the norms of the group is to risk discipline

      7. Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up. Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing.

      Answer, Yes absolutely, all other Christians and Christian Churches outside of the Exclusive Brethren are wrong, in error, iniquitous, not fit to eat or drink with, not fit to join in fellowship, communion, or worship with, this is what “separation” is all about.

      8. Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church.

      Answer, Yes, since 2012, with expensive PR stunts, press releases, blogs, websites, media features, prior to 2012 there was no “look at me, look at me” attitude. They also claim that outside of the walls of Exclusive Brethrenism “no other Christian Church follows the apostle Pauls ministry”, or understands about the “bride of Christ” or enjoys the “freedom of the Holy Spirit”, or “walks in the light of the assembly” and much more, all of which is factually incorrect and simple scaremongering, especially when the Exclusive Brethren don’t follow any of this themselves !

      9. Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous

      Answer, Yes absolutely, see also answer to point 8. All others outside of the Exclusive Brethren are called “worldlies” even if they are Christians. The whole of the rest of the Body of Christ (all other Christian Churches), are separated from

      10. Do they call those who leave fall away’s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas.

      Answer, Yes, all those who leave (even if they are Christians and go to a Christian Church) are told they have “turned away from the truth” and are traitors, opposers, apostates etc

      Points 11 to 14 to follow

    6. Points 11 to 14

      11. Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection.

      Answer, Yes, only approved books, internet sites, etc are allowed. Websites and blogs exposing their false teaching are called “anti Christian” It is said that “why would you want to read worldly books when we have the ministry from these great men that has come down to us”. Even Christian teaching books of the sort found in a normal Christian bookshop are not allowed, because they haven’t been written by the Exclusive Brethren

      12. Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities. If not you're spirituality and dedication are questioned.

      Answer, Yes, members are not allowed relationships, friends etc with any outside of the group, attendance at meetings is required. Former members are not allowed to be associated with as they are “under assembly discipline”

      13. Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong.

      Answer, Yes absolutely. The Exclusive Brethren PBCC also lie, deceive, spread mischief, confusion and misinformation and half truths to cover up or gloss over the harm and detriment they create. The recent UK Charity Commission case from 2012 to 2014 is a pertinent example of this.

      14. Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise. Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right. true disciples did not question Jesus.

      Answer, Yes, arrogance, pride, manipulation, scripture twisting and psychological and emotional pressure are rife, resulting in brainwashing. They saying is “even if the Brethren are wrong they are right”. If you don’t obey you are “withdrawn from” which means you are kicked out of the group losing contact with family and friends.

    7. To PB commentator 19.04.... I do agree, it must be very challenging to be enslaved by a discredited organisation that has been the cause of man slaughter, suicide, nervous breakdown, alcoholism, child abduction, enforced separation and divorce, loss of property, jobs, personal belongings and inheritance, and all under the despotic supervision of hollow leaders and their enforcers, all anti Christian and some of psychotic tendencies....Very challenging, indeed, or, as you might say, a a very shaky position on which to cling.

    8. Oh, sorry, I forgot, also hides paedophiles and other criminal behaviour.

    9. 22:55 - Who says they are a discredited organisation? You?
      22:59 - Have you ever looked within your own heart?
      19:04 - Someone who has moral courage.

      Those awful things can be found there in our own hearts. That's why Christ died for us so that sin could be dealt with and the sinner set free.
      The human heart is capable of the most awful things. Take a look at the news any time on any day and there it is.
      So be careful about making charges which are not characteristic of the PBCC.

      Rather judge yourself instead of accusing others.
      Indeed, may we all judge ourselves before a holy God.

      Some might try to discredit by making a fictional list of wrongs or trumped-up charges, but decent minded people know these slurs
      are not characteristic of the PBCC.

      I challenge anyone to present evidence to support those charges listed by 22:55 / 22:59. No doubt Rev will make his own long list, but then we know it is gross deceit and a product of evil. Hell will be filled of this kind of person. In the end, such persons believe in their own lies and are deceived by them. I've read several of his lengthy posts on here and I'm in no doubt he is in serious trouble with his creator.

      These are persons who are unwilling to face-up where they have gone wrong. All too easy to blame someone else when sin and self will gets you into trouble.

      Furthermore, real men don't write such lists, but take responsibility for their own shortcomings. God helps those who help themselves.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    10. Leonardo,

      I don’t see anything deceitful or evil about Brother Rev’s lists. They all look pretty realistic to me, though I agree with your point that some of the accusations may not be characteristic of all the Brethren members. Some of them really apply only to the leaders or to the system.

      You say, “Real men don’t make such lists.” This is as convincing as “Real men don’t eat quiche,” a book title and a popular saying somewhat lacking in supporting evidence.

      In Matthew 24 you can read about a real man who did make a rather similar list, which included such items as the following.

      “They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them.

      They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long.

      They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi.

      But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others.

      You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth.

      So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”

      . . . and several other accusations. Quite a list. Some of them are rather similar to the items on Brother Rev’s list, and they were all aimed at members of a particular sect, which shared some of the characteristics of the Hales fellowship. The Pharisees, rather like Brethren leaders, emphasised the authority of their oral teachings, as distinct from written scriptures, and used them to impose burdensome and arbitrary rules on their followers, so that the few could wield power over the many and sometimes used it to their own advantage.

      Where do you get the saying that God helps those who help themselves? I don't think JND would like that saying, since it would clash with his extreme Calvinism, according to which we are incapable even of repentance unless God acts first in mercy to save us.

    11. LJO
      The CC uniquely found the EB (PBCC) to be the cause of damage and detriment; the only so-called religious denomination, out of way over a thousand, to be so censored by the CC. The evidence submitted by all those who have suffered from the cult also bears testimony.

      The evidence is all there and has been referred to, in a variety of ways, on this and other blogs, and elsewhere, by individuals recounting their personal stories. Some of this evidence is also sworn and on file with solicitors and in other domains. Why don't you provide evidence that none of these charges are true?

      You do not appear to have responded to the recent contributor who was even able to provide an eye witness account to unseemly acts by cult members; and that, just one comment out of many thousands.

      Personally, my own short comings do not consist of hounding other people towards nervous breakdowns, occasional suicide and alcoholism plus loss of property, job, spouse, children, inheritance. etc etc. My shortcomings are rather more everyday. Of course, we understand that it is only a select number of leaders and enforcers who bear hands-on responsibility for this detriment; including people, such as yourself, who expend energy propagating the "position". However, the rank and file must take some responsibility for participating in this system.

      The Rev goes to great lengths to explain the true Christian position and explain in a logical way all that is corrupt and rotten about the position of the PBCC. We do not know it to be a gross deceit and product of evil. Only you, and a couple of your comrades in arms ( who, like you, might be products of the PBCC publicity department).The Rev is a genuine Christian contributor to this blog and I am sure his hard work is appreciated by visitors such as "A. Christian", who comments below.

      To speak of the Rev, as you do, suggests that you are a very insecure, unhappy and malevolent person (or persons). You have never gained credit for the PBCC on this blog. I wonder why you/they continue with such offensive diatribes. It is a pity that you do not have something more worthwhile to pursue.

      Oh, by the way, I am assuming lunch with Joan is now "off". I think she must be much relieved, if I may speak on her behalf. No offence, of course!

    12. Leonardo, you have just supplied a lot of the evidence yourself in your antagonistic ad-hominem attack on Rev - a man who claims to be saved by the Blood of the Lamb and in Christian fellowship elsewhere.

      Only The Lamb know who are His. Not you, not some cult leader, no one.

      Oh, and I'm sure evidence will be forthcoming on the posts you mention. Meanwhile have you read:


      A lot of referenced evidence there already.

    13. Leonardo J Octavianus who writes -

      “So be careful about making charges which are not characteristic of the PBCC”

      “Some might try to discredit by making a fictional list of wrongs or trumped-up charges, but decent minded people know these slurs are not characteristic of the PBCC.”

      His statements take some deciphering as they are full of clichés, broad assumptions and baseless slurs, However, is he now denying that the practices and doctrines listed by Brother Rev in posts

      18 June 2014 15:37
      18 June 2014 16:41
      19 June 2014 11:49
      19 June 2014 12:18
      19 June 2014 12:59

      are factual practices and doctrines which are general characteristics of the Exclusive Brethren, now called PBCC ?

      I should add, that if Leonardo J Octavianus, (who appears to be an Exclusive Brethren PBCC spokesperson), is trying to deny these factual characteristics of Exclusive Brethren practices/doctrines, then, he is either, a wily deceiver with what appears to be a cauterised conscience (1 Timothy 4) , or has no knowledge of the Brethren, or all of the practices and doctrines listed have been changed overnight and the Exclusive Brethren PBCC no longer exists ?, Mr Leonardo J Octavianus, which is it to be ?

    14. LJO.... I would hope that all the unseemly, immoral, and sometimes criminal behaviour, is not "characteristic" of the PBCC in that these do not happen every day, performed by the rank and file, but they occur over the years, perpetrated, in the main, by the leaders and enforcers; but also, possibly by other members, in cases of paedophilia, for example. They must bear some responsibility for tacitly supporting the regime.How many suicides, homeless teenagers, divorces, child abduction, molestation, financial poverty, loss of job, nervous breakdowns, harassment would you like, to make a case?? Is the fact that all these have occurred, from time to time, blinded you to the serious of even one such case occurring within a so-called Christian organisation?

    15. Maybe my wife, daughter and I didn't get harried and chased away from my ex-EB father's graveside by 40 odd EB members.Maybe I just thought it would make a good slur to cast before them, but then I checked with another non-EB friend of my dad who was there and it actually did happen. Disgraceful behaviour in anyone's book, more particularly with the EB interfering in the affairs of someone who had made it very clear he no longer wanted to be a member and had certainly not specified an EB internment in his will.

      An explanation please LJO, then possibly an apology from those responsible for the heartless actions and compensation for the grief the harm and detriment referred to by the Charity Commission has caused my family over many years. Somewhere in the region of £1million should help, seeing as a mental breakdown was precipitated by all this.

      Mark R Elliott

    16. Leonardo J Octavianus

      You say – in your post above
      “22:55 - Who says they are a discredited organisation? You?”

      No, all the evidence from court documents, members, ex members, EB written ministry, EB leaders, EB divisions, EB hypocrisy, EB letters, EB lies and denials of obvious facts and evidence, comparisons of EB teaching to what is taught in the Bible, historical church history, comparisons of EB teaching and practices to what is taught in Christian Churches, books written by former members, books written by Christian elders from other Christian Churches, comparisons of EB written ministry with the Bible, the lies cover-ups deceit and misinformation spread during the Charity Commission case from 2012 to 2014, etc etc

      Leonardo J Octavianus, all of this factual broad base of evidence from multiple sources illustrates the Exclusive Brethren PBCC are a discredited organisation

      The Charity Commission Report of Jan 2014 clearly identifies the Exclusive Brethren PBCC as a discredited organisation, fully listing many harmful and detrimental issues in section 89 of the report and stating -

      “91. Having fully considered all of the available evidence albeit untested by cross examination, the Commission concluded, on balance, that there were elements of detriment and harm which emanated from doctrine and practices of the Brethren and which had a negative impact on the wider community as well as individuals. In particular the nature and impact of the Disciplinary Practices and the impact of the doctrines and practices on those who leave and on children within the PBCC may have consequences for society.

      92. The Commission considered that there is evidence to support the view that there are elements of detriment and harm which are in real danger of outweighing public benefit

    17. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      Who writes – “I challenge anyone to present evidence to support those charges listed by 22:55 / 22:59”

      Ok, then, lets look at a few shall we –

      “cause of suicide” – I and my wider family know an example of this. Many others are also listed on the wikipeebia website. One married man was so devastated that his wife had told tales about him to the local EB leaders over a minor infringement of EB rules, that, rather than face the pain of unchristian separation enforced by EB local heavies, he put his head on the railway track.

      “nervous breakdown” – I and my family know of multiple cases of this, sometimes coming to light after a person leaves the EB because of unchristian actions of the EB enforcers during leaving, or often going unnoticed and untreated within EB circles due to pressures of the EB lifestyle and being forcibly separated from family outside

      “alcoholism” – well theres the obvious one of previous leader James Taylor Junior who was an alcoholic which is a matter of historical record including evidence from hospital visits, recordings, written ministry, close family members, personal letters. Then theres the inherent culture of alcohol drinking leading to members becoming dependant, we know of at least 3

      “child abduction” – we know of cases where this has happened, but then look at the case of the Field’s in New Zealand.

      “enforced separation and divorce” – we know of cases like this too, where married spouses have been forced to separate and live separately because the EB rules state they must do so if one spouse leaves the Brethren. There are separation documents drawn up by the brethren to enforce this. There was also evidence of this in the UK BCC everyman program of 2003 and there have been numerous news reports and documentaries in New Zealand and Australia revealing such action. In addition, there are court reports

      “loss of property & inheritance” – we also know of cases like this too, where persons have been disinherited because they left the Brethren

      “loss of jobs” – There was a case in Ireland in July 2013, where an EB owned firm was found guilty in a court of unfair dismissal and unlawful discrimination. The news article states – “The Fair Employment Tribunal found the firm unlawfully discriminated against him on grounds of religious belief and that he had been unfairly dismissed”. In reaching their decision the tribunal said: "It is clear to us that there was very much a culture of 'sheep and goats'. "We were left with the clear impression from the respondent's witnesses that they saw it as desirable and preferable to be Brethren and, by implication, undesirable not to be Brethren."

      Leonardo, all of the above can be supported by written documented evidence, as you well know !

      However, since you are clearly in a obtuse and wilfully deceitful frame of mind, as in your other posts you have even attempted to deny the core practices and doctrines of the Exclusive Brethren PBCC, I fully expect you to also be in deluded denial about all of the above too !!

    18. Thanks to the Anons above who took the time and effort to present the tiresome LJO with the "evidence" to which he is so attached. Due to folks' diligent and unremitting efforts, LJO's deceitful and pathetic propaganda in which he aspires to present the PBCC Ltd as a mainstream church, rather than a nasty cult, is falling on stony ground. I am not sure who he is hoping to convince, as his efforts only end in disaster for PBCC Ltd PR . Any newcomers to this site will be horrified at his vindictive attacks on The Rev, and other Christians, not to mention folk of other persuasions, or, none at all.

      LJO has long given up the lie that he is an unattached member of the PBCC, hoping to give some credibility to his bluster. He is, in fact, a PBCC spokesperson/mischief maker, or shares the role with other cynical propagandists.

    19. If LJO is indeed a spokesperson for the PBCC then he does a very bad job of it!!!. it would be far better for everyone if he kept his mouth shut and didn't stick his nose into places where it is not wanted!!

    20. The tactics of Leonardo J Octavianus are causing further damage to the Exclusive Brethren PBCC

      He and his like minded with their repeated blanket denials of facts despite all the available evidence, even to the extent of attempting to deny core doctrines and practices of the group, are making the Exclusive Brethren PBCC look really foolish, deluded and even more cultish !

      If Leonardo J Octavianus had come on here saying that, “yes these things are what we practice and believe and these are the reasons why..”, and listing sources of reference such as printed ministry quotes, or references from the Bible, to support the practices and doctrines, he and his like minded might at least gain some respect for attempting to be open, honest and truthful.

      We might then be able to engage in proper debate about Christian theology, history, context, hermeneutics, application, biblical truth, analysis of the printed ministry set against the Bible to search if these things are true (the Bereans in Acts), etc etc

      But no, all we have are blanket denials, outright lies, clichés, no references to supporting evidence, wriggles and twists, its all making the PBCC Exclusive Brethren look rather silly !

      It also makes the PBCC EB look very unchristian !

    21. Anon 11:02
      I refer particularly to paragraphs 3 and 4 which makes it clear you are contentious and full of opinions. This is of no value or consequence.

      See here my friend -
      Paul was clear on how to deal with contentious people -
      "If anyone think to be contentious, we have no such custom"
      He also voiced similar judgement of "Schools of opinion"
      Such opinions can be found in universities, but in the end prove nothing and have no moral value.

      Debate what Anon?
      There is no debate to be had since God himself has established the one position by his divine sovereignty and will. There is nothing to be debated about God's choice. Opinion is just opinion, nothing more.

      You accuse the PBCC of many things, but I would politely suggest you take a look at yourself and allow God to search your heart.

      Who gives a flying German sausage about debate if it makes no difference to the outcome? Fighting God is not a happy occupation. Some have been doing it for 40 or more years, but have they found satisfaction? No.

      Want to spend another 40 plus fruitless years doing the same thing?
      Go ahead and be frustrated.
      There are certain things which are the cornerstone of Christian faith and conviction. These things will not change. We have an unchangeable God.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    22. Leonardo,

      You say that opinions, such as those of Anon 11:02 and those found in universities, are of no consequence. And yet your own posts rarely contain anything else but opinions. Are your opinions of some consequence, unlike those of others? If so, what makes them different?

      You dismiss the value of reasoning or debate. That is a pretty extreme position to take. Can you think of a single example of a logically valid argument that has ever started from known facts and yet has led to a false conclusion? As far as I know it has never happened during thousands of years of reasoning. I have always found reasoning from observable facts while obeying the well established rules of logic is an extremely reliable way of searching out the truth about most things, and apart from logical reasoning, I don’t know any other way of testing whether a set of beliefs are self-consistent. Self-consistency of one’s beliefs is desirable, don’t you think?

      Don’t you think debate is often valuable even when it does not reach a firm conclusion, because it is one way of gaining a better understanding of the concerns, values, wishes and thoughts of others? That is surely also desirable, don’t you think?

    23. Ian -
      An interesting and somewhat constructive attempt as to the purpose or value of debate. It's a good question you raise, so let's tackle it.

      Before I move on, I think we first need to ponder the difference between a characteristically opinionated person and a stance borne out of unshakable conviction. A clear distinction is apparent.

      There is also a distinct difference between natural logical reasoning and reasoning borne of faith. God would say -
      "Come let us reason together" That's on his terms, not ours.
      To reason effectively, we have to retrace our steps to the point of departure. It involves giving up our natural reasoning and self will.
      It has been said that common sense is close to Christianity. God has given man sensibilities and scope to make choices.

      The bible often refers to those who murmur and reason and people such as these, undermine progress. In the bible it says they murmured and turned away back. That is the end product of natural earthly reasoning.

      Of course, it consumes men and the matters or concerns of men, but we have been called to something far greater. God's wonderful light would bring about an end to earthly natural reasoning if we allow it to search us out. Natural reasoning has nothing to offer God because it produces no fruit.

      Man has been reasoning on his own terms for thousands of years, but has it produced lasting peace or fruit amongst the nations?
      God has the solution to man's troubled reasoning through the work Jesus did on the cross and the foolishness of the glad tidings.
      A simple solution then, but largely despised by schools of opinion found in the hearts of contentious people.

      So therefore one has to take a closer look at the context of Anon 11:02's post. Opinionated persons are typically contentious because they have not arrived at an end of themselves. Doing so involves returning to the point of departure. It's something we all have to do at some point.

      Turn to the wonderful person of Christ. You will never regret it.

      Leonardo J Octavianus.

    24. Thank you, Leonardo, for taking the time to reply. I have often heard Brethren saying similar things about natural reasoning being different from their own reasoning, which they sometimes call spiritual or faith-based reasoning, but the ones who say this seem to mean that you should just accept whatever they say without expecting evidence, reason, scripture, or any other justification. That, if I may say so, is about as unreasonable as you can get.

      The same people, who include JTJr, JHS, JSH, BDH, often use natural reasoning themselves, just like everyone else’s natural reasoning, often littered with false premises and clunking non-sequiturs. So labeling everyone else’s reasoning as merely natural is a bit of a cop-out. It is a facile way to dismiss all alternative views without the inconvenience of having to justify your own views.

      What you call “a stance borne out of unshakable conviction” would be called something very different by anyone who does not have the same convictions. It would usually be seen as opinionated, prejudiced or bigoted.

      It would be interesting to see where the unshakable convictions all come from. Some of them seem only to be found in people who have been intensively indoctrinated from early childhood. If you had been born into a Muslim family or a Buddhist family, wouldn’t you have a quite different set of unshakable convictions? Should we not try to ensure that our convictions are based on something more reliable than where and when we happen to be born?

    25. LJO/PBCC Ltd Publicity Team

      I do believe that "unshakable conviction", throughout the ages, has resulted in all the horrors that have been experienced. In terms of religion it has caused the deaths, torture and destruction of multi millions. Equally, in the political arena. Why do you hold these opinions, if opinions are worthless?

      Hitler's "unshakeable convictions" resulted in a world war and the destruction of the Jews. Your "unshakable convictions" have resulted in much harm to many Christians, and others, through the break up of their families, child abduction, enforced divorce and separation, loss of job, finance and inheritance, alcoholism, subjection of women, covering up of criminal activity, misery, anxiety and even suicide.

      I do believe, in such cases, opinions might have saved some misery, don't you think? I do not think God can be pleased with such destruction of his people, nor with the perpetrators, nor those who would seek to justify these actions through their fallacious reasoning and the denial of the gift of reason and debate.

    26. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      In your post at 20 June 2014 12:17 you said the following –

      “I challenge anyone to present evidence to support those charges listed by 22:55 / 22:59”

      In post 20 June 2014 20:10 Anon takes up your challenge and provides evidence.

      Mr LJO,

      - Why did you automatically and arrogantly dismiss the charges mentioned ?

      - Why did you try to discredit the posters who made those charges ?

      - Why did you arrogantly “lay down your challenge” when you knew there were many sources of evidence to support the charges made ?

      - Why do you automatically dismiss any charges against the PBCC EB despite masses of evidence to support the charges ?

      - You laid down your challenge to provide evidence, that evidence was duly provided yet you now try to ignore it because you have made multiple posts on other matters but not addressed the evidence which you asked for ?

      - Do you have any humility, or conscience, or honestly, or righteousness, or Christian qualities in you to now admit you were wrong to dismiss the charges made ?

      - Do you think the evidence discussed shows the PBCC EB in good Christian light, as adhering to Gods Word in the Bible ?

      - Do you think the evidence provided shows that God is with the PBCC EB ?


    27. LJO...
      Now see here, my friend, why do you use your natural reasoning to reason here when you consider it to be so without foundation?

      What is significant about the period of time - the 40 odd years - that you say folk have been fighting God (as you put it)? Now see here, as it happens, that is about the amount of time that has elapsed since belubbed J.T.Jnr was found in bed having "medical treatment" from a woman arrayed in her natural beauty. Is there a link here, would you say? That is, between fighting God and the rejection of Mr Taylor and his "ministry"?

      Clearly, my friend, that cannot be so; that would be quite a blasphemous thought, don't you think? Clearly, you had some other event in mind.

      Perhaps you could come in here with a timely word, at this juncture, to instruct those who might get hold of the wrong end of the German sausage, as it were (alluding to your wonderful and inspired image in your previous posting).

    28. Leonardo J Octavianus, re your post at 23 June 2014 19:54,

      “There is no debate to be had since God himself has established the one position by his divine sovereignty and will. There is nothing to be debated about God's choice.”

      Leonardo, how can you and the PBCC EB claim to be the “one position” somehow established by “His (that is Gods), sovereignty” which is “His Choice” and in doing so separate from all other Christian Churchs under the doctrine of "separation from evil" then claim “to be a mainstream church” ?

      The two claims are incompatible and diametrically opposed are they not ?

      You and the PBCC EB cant be a “mainstream church” and then say “we are the only right position” ? There is no sensibility or common sense about that hypocritical stance at all !

      O, and by the way, God didn’t establish the “one right position”, as expounded by PBCC EB, that was invented by “teachings of men”, such as JN Darby, Raven, Taylor etc and nothing to do with God, to claim such is pure blasphemy and heresy

      You mention much about “contentious and full of opinions” and quote the biblical apostle Paul to try to support your assertions. Here are two of your quoted comments -

      “Paul was clear on how to deal with contentious people - "If anyone think to be contentious, we have no such custom" He also voiced similar judgement of "Schools of opinion" Such opinions can be found in universities, but in the end prove nothing and have no moral value.” And later on “Debate what Anon? There is no debate to be had”

      If you read the context of your quote from 1 Corinthians 11, the biblical apostle Paul is actually referring to the head covering when mentioning "If anyone think to be contentious, we have no such custom" he was not referring to stopping discussion, consideration, or questions about the teachings of God

      You also quote from Galatians 5 v20 where the apostle Paul mentions “schools of opinion”, if you read the context, he is speaking of those still wanting to follow the law and desires of the flesh and not being led by the teachings of God and the Spirit of God. He was not referring to stopping discussion, consideration, or questions about the teachings of God. If he ‘was’ alluding to that, then what is the point of having a Bible teaching meeting, (in PBCC EB known as a Bible Reading Meeting) !

      We gain confirmation that the biblical apostle Paul was not referring to stopping discussion, consideration, or questions about the teachings of God, because we read elsewhere in the Bible of –

      The Bereans in Acts 17 v11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so”

      1 John 4 v1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world”

      Romans 15 v4 “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope”

      Each of these examples requires discussion, debate, consideration, teaching, thoughts, conclusions, learning, questions, answers, etc. This is how persons learn, through discussion.

      The Bible teaches that these qualities and processes are required, yet from your comments as quoted above, you and the PBCC EB teach they are not required, nor approved of !

      Why do you and the PBCC teach things contrary to Gods Word ?

      Brother Rev

  15. I don't consider the EB a church at all
    I don't consider the EB to be Chistian

    As to mainstream, if you consider the UK Political parties, there are main and minor and tiny one-offs

    The EB have less than 1 in a thousand or less than 0.003% of the UK population


    1. Aaron - God is not concerned too much at this point with numbers of people. It is a question of what purpose the PBCC serves.

      Their presence is doubtless holding things in check and guiding Western governments to allow the testimony to continue for the time being.

      Some like The Rev, Jill and some others, might express their hostile and active opposition to their authority, but it will not make a shred of difference to God's role for them. There are certain things which are predestined and no amount of natural reasoning or contention is going to change that role.

      See here - Martha was concerned with much serving and she reasoned, but Jesus said - Mary has chosen the good part which will not be taken from her. Martha's concerns were not wrong, but it was a distraction away from what really matters. To be occupied with Christ and his finished work.
      That's what really matters. It is the only thing which is lasting.

      We need the PBCC for sure, so don't knock them without considering why they are here. It's better to think generously of them.and to have respect.
      Moreover, at the end times of this dispensation, he will have the most to share his heavenly kingdom. His saints will rule over the earth in a day to come. Some may despise or reject that idea, but there it is.
      When his church has gone, evil will be unleashed on the earth for a time.
      The question we should be asking ourselves is - Where will we be?

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    2. LJO to presume to know the mind of God 'at this point' is both arrogant, presumptive and frankly blasphemous.

      Don't you sing the following hymn?

      God moves in a mysterious way
      His wonders to perform;
      He plants His footsteps in the sea
      And rides upon the storm.
      Deep in unfathomable mines
      Of never failing skill
      He treasures up His bright designs
      And works His sov’reign will.
      Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
      The clouds ye so much dread
      Are big with mercy and shall break
      In blessings on your head.
      Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
      But trust Him for His grace;
      Behind a frowning providence
      He hides a smiling face.
      His purposes will ripen fast,
      Unfolding every hour;
      The bud may have a bitter taste,
      But sweet will be the flow’r.
      Blind unbelief is sure to err
      And scan His work in vain;
      God is His own interpreter,
      And He will make it plain.

      If you sing it, why not believe it too?

    3. LJO/PBCCLtd Propaganda Team

      Please could you expand more on the "things" being held in check and the testimony that is guiding Western governments? Could you tell us how Eastern governments fit in? Could you also please explain why it is necessary for the "testimony" to include such harmful practices as the separation of families, denunciations, alcoholism, covering up criminal activity, loss of jobs, house, finances and inheritance; these matters sometimes leading to misery, mental breakdown and even, sadly, to suicide. Also, why it should include illegal political activity and movements of large amounts of money, not to mention a concentration on business, tax avoidance and the creation of wealth and luxury living much greater than that "enjoyed" by ordinary folk.

      Do you consider such a "position" should be bought with blood on the hands of the perpetrators, of the above, and those who would seek to justify the same?

      We await your reply.

    4. Leonardo J Octavianus - you wrote about the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren "Their presence is doubtless holding things in check and guiding Western governments to allow the testimony to continue for the time being."

      Perhaps you aren't aware that in England the PBCC so overplayed its hand in the way it lobbied Parliament concerning the Charity Commission matter that British Ministers, MPs and Peers are unlikely to be guided at all by the "presence" of the PBCC.

      MPs and Peers, who were originally sympathetic to a group of lobbyists calling themselves Plymouth Brethren, began to feel harassed by PBCC persistence. As parliamentarians learnt how the PBCC practises separation and refuses to encourage education at university level many began to change their mind about offering overt support to the PBCC's campaign.

      The PBCC has left a nasty taste in many powerful people's mouths, and I don't think it's true that the British government, at least, will in any way be influenced or held in check by this group of Exclusive Brethren.

    5. Leonardo J Octavianus

      You say – “God is not concerned too much at this point with numbers of people. It is a question of what purpose the PBCC serves”

      Your comment gives the impression you and the PBCC EB know what God wants and what his aims and objectives are, yet when your assertions are tested through Gods Word which is the Bible your assertions are exposed as nonsense !

      Firstly, “His ways are not our ways” He is above all and that includes the PBCC EB, so don’t be mislead or have the arrogance to think that the PBCC EB can dictate to God, you cant !.

      Secondly, God is very much concerned with numbers we read in John 3 16 that “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” Note the use of “whoever”, in other words his love, his good news is towards all. Not all will accept but His Word in the Bible is clear, He is very much concerned with numbers.

      Thirdly, we also read in Matthew 28 19 “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Note the use of “all” no thought of restriction in numbers in Gods plan there is there ?

      Forthly, God is certainly concerned about the purpose the PBCC EB serve as Gods Word the Bible shows us that the PBCC EB twist His Word for their own aims.

      The PBCC EB despise the work of God in all other Christians outside of the walls of EBism because they separate from the rest of the Body of Christ, refuse to fellowship, worship, commune, or eat or drink with any other Christians, so yes God is very concerned about the actions of the PBCC EB !

      You say – “Their presence is doubtless holding things in check and guiding Western governments to allow the testimony to continue for the time being”

      There is only one conclusion about that statement and its “delusion”.

      The PBCC EB are holding nothing in check at all, they are an insignificant tiny cultic sect with deeply endemic sectarian practices. Do you really in all conscience, think that God would use a sect of the worst kind, a sect which has separated from the Body of Christ declaring it to be iniquitous and unfit to eat or drink with, to further His Work !!!

      Whats interesting about your statement is that I read something very similar in the “Awake” and “Watchtower” magazines, from the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which are the equivalent of the PBCC EB “ministry books” !

      The JW’s are also known as a cultic sect which has separated from the Body of Christ and thinks it alone is the true church and it alone is the testimony !!

      Mr LJO and the PBCC EB, please keep posting your nonsense because the more you post the more ridiculous, sectarian and cultic you sound and the further and further you get from Gods Word which is the Bible

    6. Mr LJO,

      "Their presence is doubtless holding things in check and guiding Western governments to allow the testimony to continue for the time being"

      Please provide evidence/examples of how the PBCC EB alone are doing this ?

      Otherwise, your comment is just pure fantasy

    7. Mr LJO, you said

      “See here - Martha was concerned with much serving and she reasoned, but Jesus said - Mary has chosen the good part which will not be taken from her. Martha's concerns were not wrong, but it was a distraction away from what really matters. To be occupied with Christ and his finished work. That's what really matters. It is the only thing which is lasting”

      That’s all very fine, to use a PBCC EB phrase, however, focusing and being occupied with Christ and His finished work, as the only thing that is lasting, is hardly an activity of the PBCC EB is it ?

      For PBCC EB to be occupied with Christ and His finished work as the only thing that is lasting would mean giving up many core doctrines and activities which are not of Christ, such as –

      - Separation from the rest of the Body of Christ, ie all other Christians
      - refusing to eat or drink with any other Christians in the Body of Christ
      - following edicts of “men” even when those edicts contradict Gods Word, the Bible
      - The teaching that says “there is one position” and “we are it” we are “the church”
      - thinking that an alcoholic womaniser James Taylor Junior is “our beloved”
      - refusing to fellowship, worship, or commune with any other Christian
      - building huge warehouse “meeting rooms”
      - ministry of “men” such as JT, Bruce Hales is authoritative, even if its wrong
      - dividing families if a person leaves the PBCC EB
      - withdrawing from Christians who are saved by His Blood
      - Twisting Gods Word, the Bible to suit your own separatist sectarian agenda
      - sponging as much money from governments and institutions as possible
      - Lobbying institutions under false pretences
      - adding extra biblical rules via the written ministry of men, and calling it “divine”
      - Giving adulation to “these great men” as if they are infallible, especially when edicts are proven to be false when examined in the light of the Bible
      - saying that if persons leave the PBCC EB, they can t be Christian
      - Teaching that only with the Brethren does the Lord visit at the Breaking of Bread communion service
      - teaching that, to have appointed elders, pastors, deacons is wrong, even when Gods Word gives instruction for such
      - claiming that persons can only find the truth and salvation within the PBCC EB
      - teaching that members will be withdrawn from if they go and hear the Word of God in another Christian Church outside the walls of the PBCC EB

      Mr Leonardo J Octavianus,

      All of these things (and much more), practiced by the PBCC EB, are a distraction from what really matters, which is to be occupied with Christ and His finished work. All of the things detailed are of “man”, not of “Christ” !!

      Or do you deny that PBCC EB practice the things detailed ?
      Or do you deny that the things detailed are “not of Christ” but “of man” ?
      Or do you and the PBCC EB think the things detailed give focus to Christ ?

      Its important you answer all questions put to you Mr Octavianus, as you are the PBCC EB spokesperson and we wouldn’t want them to be misrepresented would we !

    8. Rev, Thank you so much for your long and winding epistle.
      However, If you don't like the PBCC way of doing things
      that's really just fine because you haven't been invited to
      any of the meetings or charity groups.

      We don't permit evil to come into the presence of the saints.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    9. Ooops, LJO. You claim not to be a PBCC member then say 'WE don't permit evil....blah blah. You are basically dishonest and deceitful and if you really are away on business ( which I doubt ), just get on with it. Are you in one of Unispace's global locations? LOUD GUFFAWS

    10. What charity groups are those, LJO? Can anyone join? Are those the occasional, self-serving, publicity events where you pretend to be an approachable local church rather than an introverted, heretical cult.

    11. LJO..We aren't not to keen on the PBCC way of doing this, either - that is, in no particular order, by enforcement, splitting of families, heresy, child abduction, enforced separation, rendering people homeless, tax avoidance, pretending to be a charity, encouraging the young into alcohol dependency, limited education, limited careers, indoctrination, subjection of women, homophobia, sexism, hypocrisy, deceit, covering up criminal practice, political meddling, money laundering and so on, and so forth.

      Not very "saintly" behaviour!

  16. The Oxford English Dictionary defines mainstream (noun) as the ideas, attitudes, or activities that are shared by most people and regarded as normal or conventional.

    The ideas, attitudes and activities of the Hales Brethren are well documented by their ministry and have been witnessed by many of us here. No honest person can pretend they are shared by most people or even by most Christians. Quite a lot of the Brethren’s most cherished ideas, attitudes and activities are shared by only about one Christian out of every 50,000 or one person out of every 160,000. They are eccentric, out on a limb, in a vanishingly small, insignificant backwater, not in any sense a mainstream.

    How many Christians think JTJr, JHS, JSH and BDH are part of an unbroken line of divinely accredited ministers? How many Christians think these men’s ministry is virtually on a par with scripture? How many Christians think God wants us to separate from everyone who is not a member of the Hales fellowship? How many Christian groups consume as much alcoholic liquor as the Hales Brethren? How many Christians discuss great men and business much more frequently than faith, grace, mercy, love, righteousness, compassion, forgiveness, prayer, worship, redemption or salvation? How many Christians think someone who is drunk, disorderly, blasphemous, abusive and indulges in sexual assault and adulterous behaviour can be looked up to as a successor of the Apostle Paul?

    As I said, only about one out of every 50,000. Not quite “most people”.

    And does anyone, even among the Brethren, honestly regard their ideas, attitudes, or activities as “normal or conventional”?

  17. Is it possible Leonardo is actually a paid contributor from the EB's PR company? He often says all the right things but the fatal flaw is when he then pretends the EB do all those things. He could equally well say exactly the same words and then finish with "and this is why I conclude the EB is nothing but an evil cult!"


  18. This is so confusing for Joan! Now she might be going to lunch with a PR man instead of someone who is not a member of the PBCC Ltd but extremely supportive of the "position". I suggested earlier that LJO was a PBCC Ltd composite; the notion of having lunch with such made Nottachurch rather queasy; I'm not sure if a PBCC Ltd PR man will settle his stomach, however.

    Whatever LJO's creation, whether he is a figment of PB Cult Centre, or not, he serves a great purpose as his contributions draw out evidence that is highly detrimental to the EB's public image and drive to be taken seriously as a mainstream church. I find it very difficult to erase the image of drunk cult members stuffing envelopes full of cash about their wide persons at airports. Thank you so much, "Leonardo", for providing the link for this exceptional image!

  19. I remember the 1940s and 1950s in England when these Brethren were not so far out on a limb as they are now. In those days they would probably have been viewed as part of the mainstream of society, albeit positioned right at end of the non-conformist spectrum.

    Thinking about this, I realised that before James Taylor Jnr introduced his extreme separatist directives in the 1960s many Exclusive or 'Closed' Brethren women and men were well educated people who worked in the professions. I knew them as civil servants, pharmacists, school teachers and doctors. There was at least one university lecturer among them.

    It would be possible for the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren today to revise their attitude to education and careers in order legitimately to claim to be part of the mainstream of a society which values education and professional training. They could open their private schools to children of all faiths and none. They could encourage their young people to go away to university, or to study for an undergraduate degree in their local university. They could enjoy the fact that some of their members moved on to study for higher degrees or professional qualifications.

    I realise that this would mean a change of leadership in the PBCC. Bruce D Hales has been so downbeat about the value of higher education, and seems to prioritise commercial success over public service, that it's probably true to say that these Brethren will never be part of the mainstream while he remains in charge.

  20. Mainstream churches don't take malicious action to silence ex members who speak out the truth about the abuse they suffered while in the church.

    Case in point: Hacking attempts on both personal & business websites belonging to ex-members, who have been vocal (currently or in the past) about their experiences at the hands of this evil cult - this has happened to many people, and is still happening today.

    They have a lot to hide, a lot of shame they try to keep concealed.

    Samuel Forrest

    1. Indeed Sam mainstream churches do not behave like this. And yes it is still happening to the best of my knowledge.

    2. I realise this is slightly off topic for this thread - but interesting to note anyway - I had recurring attacks over several months, right up unto this week, and had regularly advised the big wigs in NZ of this, having narrowed the IP addresses down to a very specific geographic location. Yesterday I received an email from one of them:

      "...On your last email a while ago we shut down all access to that website immediately"

      2 interesting points here:
      1 - That they'd shut down access to my website, inferring they knew there was an issue
      2 - That in saying this, he acknowledges they have the ability to control all websites that members have access to (if they're using 'approved' devices)

      The abuse of power and control carries on as before. Mainstream?

      Samuel Forrest

  21. Did you know that John Hales (BDH's father) went to university? He told my wife and I at a personal interview we had with him. I don't if he ever got his degree - he was telling us in the context of having to make adjustments in your thinking and said that he had taken a course called "Psychology 101" and that he had come to the conclusion that anyone who took "Psychology 201" would not be fit for fellowship. Then he said ; I met my wife to be and discovered that she had taken "Psychology 201"! He threw up his hands and said "See, you have to make adjustments!"

  22. I took Taylorism 101 and 201 but flunked Symingtonese 101 and am now proud to say I have successfully completed Worldly 101 through to 401.

  23. You may meet many PBCultCentre members at your graduation ceremony; they are, after all, in their fascination with business, finance, tax avoidance, large houses, large cars, rich living, the latest mobile devices, alcohol consumption, non Christian behaviour towards some of their own and others, more worldly than many folk they despise. high achievers - double firsts (university attendance not required, of course, as these courses may be completed whilst on the job, as it were).

  24. If my Christian church did any of the things or believed any of the things explained in this thread (now numbering 44 comments), I would leave it straight away

    I would leave and tell all who mattered how dangerous a place it was.

    It is impossible to believe or practice the things described in this thread and still remain a genuine Christian Church who follows Gods Holy book, because the actions and beliefs described in this blog are in conflict with Gods Holy book and opposite to everything contained in it.

    A Christian
    (saved by the Blood of my Saviour Jesus)

  25. No-one has mentioned that these Brethren don't vote.

    How's that for being mainstream?

    1. They just meddle, below the radar, to satisfy their own financial ends or promote an aggressive, reactionary, right wing agenda.

    2. In the UK election in 2010, 15.6M registered voters did not actually vote this was approx. 35% of the electorate. I didn't know there was so many Brethren in UK.

    3. Anon 21 June 00:05

      Wow, that’s misrepresentative and misleading of you, but it’s a great example of the methods used by Exclusive Brethren PBCC to twist factual realities & speak in half truths to suit their agenda to mislead and brainwash their members

      Assuming your quoted figures are correct, some points to consider –

      - There are multiple reasons why the 15.6 million did not vote, these could include, protest at lack of viable options available, disinterest or lack of engagement in politics, illness, extremist views, protest at a particular parties actions or policies, not enough time, damaged or lost postal votes, etc. The key concept to be aware of is that it’s a choice of the individual and whichever way they choose they will not incur punitive measures

      - Just because persons are registered to vote does not mean they have to take up their right to vote, the key concept to be aware of is that it’s a choice

      - Persons may register to vote simply to be registered on the electoral roll (which is used for identity, credit reference etc), and may not have the slightest interest in politics or voting

      - However, PBCC Exclusive Brethren are not actually allowed to vote, as you know. Its not just that they don’t vote, they are ‘not allowed to’ as part of the extra biblical rules of membership of the EB !. That’s a big big difference. The key concept that you have omitted to mention is that there is no free choice, members are not allowed to vote, it’s a rule that must be followed or discipline might be incurred.

      - Here’s what JN Darby and James Taylor Junior said on the issue of Voting

      JN Darby (former leader) Volume 51 Page 431
      We do not mix in politics; we are not of the world: we do not vote. We submit to the established authorities, whatever they may be, in so far as they command nothing expressly contrary to the will of Christ.

      James Taylor Junior (former alcoholic leader) 1967 Vol 97
      Do not vote, need to be free from the democratic idea

      - A proportion of those who did not vote will be Jehovah’s Witness members, who are also not allowed to vote as part of their rules of membership. Yet again, there is no free choice, JW’s are ‘not allowed to vote’, which is yet another mirror image of the Exclusive Brethren PBCC rules of which there are many. However, Jehovah’s Witness at least don’t pretend to be a “mainstream Christian Church” and are known by millions as a dangerous sectarian cultic group, which has separated from the rest of the Christian Church. Oops there’s another mirror image of the PBCC

    4. Re. Anon 00.05....There aren't so many EB (PBCC) in the UK. I may stand corrected, but I think the number is around 16,000 (quite a tiny "mainstream" church, with representation in only a very few other countries). Mainstream church members vote, or not, as they feel inclined. I would suggest that most conscientious members of churches do, in fact, vote. EB members are instructed not to vote; if they did so, and it was discovered, they would come under heavy discipline by enforcers.

      EB (PBCC Ltd) political activity is confined to lobbying, whenever they are threatened by loss of "status", primarily in the matter of finances; also, occasionally, when they feel compelled to assert their bigotry and right wing agenda. This may take the form of illegal transfer of money, casting slurs on political parties, or "liberal" politicians they despise. Fictitious addresses have been used for this purpose.

      I should add that the examples of lobbying, recently, have been primarily in the UK, over the CC decision. "Dirty tricks" have been recorded, primarily in the Southern Hemisphere. Illegal money transfer between the UK and USA. The named PBCC Ltd member involved in this is technically regarded as a felon in the USA, subject to arrest if he crossed the border.

    5. Re JW's (see Anon 8.26) I know the EB (PBCC) well, but have had neighbourly contact with the former. As neighbours, they were pleasant and were happy to invite others into their home to have a chat about all manner of things. Their meeting places are normal builds, usually fairly traditional and accessible with notice boards and times. I cannot think of any other quasi "Christian" organisation that ranks beneath the PBCC Ltd in terms of damaging and harmful practice; leaving aside The Church of Scientology which doesn't pretend have a foundation of biblical based Christianity. Ironically, however, the C of S shares with the PBCC Ltd an ambition to be taken seriously as a mainstream church. As mentioned, by Anon 8.26, at least the JWs are less deceitful, in this regard.

    6. 08:41 Anon - Does sour grapes mean something to you?

      You are really way off the mark with your slurs and furthermore, you do not name your source of information. It amounts to the usual pathetic misrepresentation of these people.

      Firstly, The PBCC are not at all "confined to lobbying" and secondly, they have proven themselves worthy of charity status.
      There was only one decision that the CC could arrive at.

      Secondly, These people are hugely respected, needed and valued by Christian governments / nations.
      The brethren have an undeniable authority and influence whether we like it or not. I think they are 100 % worthy of our wholehearted support and we should also value the fact their presence is needed in this day and age.

      The whole agenda on this site is to harm and discredit them.

      The only people who feel "threatened", are your kind -
      Unhappy and vindictive people who refuse to face-up to their own shortcomings. No peace with God for them,

      Thirdly, there will be no arrest of any PBCC member.
      There has never been a shred of evidence of "illegal money transfers"
      No order for an arrest has been made / issued by US authorities.

      If you really want to be considered a fool, go ahead and make our day.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    7. What's the difference between Leonardo J Octavianus and an ostrich? One buries his head in the sand leaving his backside exposed and seemingly incapable of hearing any other fact or point of view than his own, the other is a bird.

      For your information LJO, PBCC member Bruce Hazel illegally contributed a large amount of money to Bush's US election campaign. We know it wasn't actually him responsible though, he was just a front for money collected by UK based PBCC for that purpose. Not only was it illegal, it was also very deceitful.

      As for the ' one decision that the CC could arrive at', why then did it take nearly two years of negotiation and why have the PBCC not met the terms they agreed with the CC in that negotiation?

      I would suggest that the whole agenda on this site is to expose the hypocrisy, deceit and duplicitous nature of the recently rebranded PBCC to persons who know no better.

      PBCC members seem to be being arrested quite frequently these days......Paedophilia, Dangerous Driving, Drink Driving.................

    8. Leonardo J Octavianus, your statement
      “Firstly, The PBCC are not at all "confined to lobbying"”

      Yet, in the post by Anon 21 June 08:26 there is this quote – ““JN Darby (former leader) Volume 51 Page 431 – “We do not mix in politics; we are not of the world: we do not vote.”

      The PBCC EB claim to follow Darby in his invention of the recovery of the truth and true Christianity as post Anon 21 June 08:26 explains, so why are you claiming the PBCC EB now disobey JN Darbys teaching to not mix in politics ?

      Leonardo J Octavianus, your statement
      “secondly, they have proven themselves worthy of charity status. There was only one decision that the CC could arrive at”

      You know that statement is total nonsense and complete misrepresentation of factual reality. The Charity Commission report of Jan 2014 clearly identifies the Exclusive Brethren PBCC as a discredited organisation, fully listing many harmful and detrimental issues in section 89 of the report and stating -

      “91. Having fully considered all of the available evidence albeit untested by cross examination, the Commission concluded, on balance, that there were elements of detriment and harm which emanated from doctrine and practices of the Brethren and which had a negative impact on the wider community as well as individuals. In particular the nature and impact of the Disciplinary Practices and the impact of the doctrines and practices on those who leave and on children within the PBCC may have consequences for society”

      “92. The Commission considered that there is evidence to support the view that there are elements of detriment and harm which are in real danger of outweighing public benefit”

      “93. The Commission noted PDT’s proposals to overcome these issues by: amending its Trust Deed, clearly setting out its principles and practices and in particular that its Disciplinary Practices and its dealings with former members would be mitigated by compassion.”

      “87. The Commission now had a substantial body of evidence from ex-members of the PBCC and others which highlighted the problems they experienced in particular, on leaving the community and continuing family relationships. The Commission was particularly keen to ensure these issues were addressed by the PBCC.”

      “96. The Commission concluded that the revised statement by the PDT of its doctrines and practices, in particular its interrelation with the wider community, was essential in enabling the Commission to accept the PDT for registration as a charity for the public benefit. Accordingly, the Commission agreed that it would register the PDT on the basis of the attached draft Deed of Variation which incorporates as part of the trust purposes the Schedules containing (i) a Statement of Core Doctrine of the Brethren and (ii) Faith in Practice.”

      Mr Leonardo J Octavianus,
      You and the PBCC EB are aware if you had not agreed to the revised documents with changes in your practices, then, the PBCC EB would have failed to qualify for Charitable status !. That’s obvious from the wording of section 96. quoted above. !

      You and the PBCC EB are also aware the CC stated “there is a years probation and the situation will be reviewed in 2015”. You are both aware the changes agreed to in the revised documents have NOT been implemented !. Families are still divided, there is no contact, total physical separation is still enforced etc etc. This means the PBCC EB are currently in breach of trust agreements.

      All of the above factual information is at great distance from the whitewash half truths you try to peddle isn’t it ?

    9. LJO/PBCC

      Do you understand the meaning of "sour grapes". I think you are out of context here.

      PBCC political activity has been concentrated on a campaign costing way over one million pounds in which an attempt was made to contact every MP, plus as many Upper House members, as possible, concerning the CC decision. Everyone knows that; apparently, except you. What other PBCC political activity do you have in mind? Evidence concerning dirty tricks is on record and is a matter of court records in Australian states

      Where is your evidence that these people are hugely respected, needed and valued by "Christian" Governments and Nations? What utter tosh!

      What is this undeniable authority and influence carried by members of the PBCC. Could you give us some examples where this is exercised?

      You are giving the EB your 100% support., and doing a great job of damaging them in the process!

      How do you know what orders for arrest have been issued by the US authorities. Do you work for the FBI or CIA.? However, since you have now pushed this point (once again to the detriment of the PBCC) Anon 16.22 confirms the person. There is plenty of evidence on this issue in all the usual places. I believe it is even on the Wikipedia entry for the Exclusive Brethren. Now you may be more familiar with US law than anyone else, but, as far as I know, Mr Hazel could be detained at the border.

      We have already had eye witness account, on this blog, of other more personal cash movements at airports. Please do not attempt to cover it up with your deceit as EB cash movements have been well documented.

      When you say make "our" day, to whom are you referring? You and who else? As regards being foolish you have long been acknowledged as the court/blog jester and your absences have been mourned by those who value your little entertainments. That is when you are not being particularly obnoxious and vindictive to genuine Christians, and others, on this site.

      If the PBCC were fair, just, honourable and had not been responsible for so much damage to persons this blog would not exist. I do not see any such aimed at any other genuine Christian denomination. Your personal position is reprehensible since you spend so much effort and time supporting the untenable. You are set in stone, but then you and the PBCC are indivisible, we know that.

    10. Leonardo J Octavianus, your statement
      “Secondly, These people are hugely respected, needed and valued by Christian governments / nations. The brethren have an undeniable authority and influence whether we like it or not. I think they are 100 % worthy of our wholehearted support and we should also value the fact their presence is needed in this day and age.”

      Mr LJO, So you think an organisation which -

      lies & deceives
      has been proven to cause harm and detriment
      divides families
      abuses and twists the word of God from the Bible
      speaks in cliches
      speaks in half truths
      makes wild unsubstantiated statements about all others outside of itself
      teaches that an alcoholic womaniser is a man of god and pure
      has been the cause of suicides
      has had a paedophile as a leader who is considered “our beloved”
      has been found to use underhand, deceitful & illegal tactics in elections
      separates from all those outside its walls, all non members
      refuses to eat or drink with any outside its walls
      declares all those outside its walls as iniquitous, worldly, unfit for fellowship
      teaches that “it” is the sole universe of truth, recovery and Christianity
      has history of and dependence on alcohol
      teaches that all other Christian Churches and Christians are in error and iniquitous
      teaches that university is “narrowing” (Bruce Hales – Current leader)
      doesn’t allow its members to have theology education
      teaches that places of sport and entertainment are “evil”
      teaches its members to “hate the world”
      tries to hide its identity when lobbying (2012-2014 Charity Commission case)
      is deeply and institutionally sectarian
      does not allow certain professional careers such as lawyer, doctor, fireman, dentists
      and much more divisive and damaging practices

      is supposedly deserving (in your eyes Mr Leonardo J Octavianus), of -

      huge respect
      wholehearted support
      needed and valued by Christian governments / nations.
      has supposed (in your eyes), undeniable authority and influence
      their presence is needed

      Mr Leonardo J Octavianus, you and the PBCC EB (you are their spokesperson) are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land, divorced from reality. As if the PBCC EB’s reputation was not damaged and discredited enough, along comes Leonardo J Octavianus to finally prove the PBCC EB have lost the plot.

      Mr LJO you remind me of Paul Joseph Goebbels the Nazi Minister of Propaganda in you’re spouting of such fallacious propaganda nonsense

    11. Leonardo J Octavianus's comment about "real men" has somehow lodged in my mind this weekend, although I've been very busy. I found it surprising that he would type such a sentence, reread it (presumably) and then click his mouse so that it would go on record as part of one of his contributions to this thread.

      Willy-nilly, other silly sayings by PBCC/Exclusive Brethren people have come to the forefront of my memory. J N Darby's August 1848 "the infection of the abominable evil" (when he was writing about his dispute with Brethren in Bristol), Bruce D Hales's assertion that higher education is "narrowing", and in his recent ministry his repetition of the fact that Abraham was "liquid" ... and many more.

      I've often thought that had J N Darby been married and shown his 'Bethesda Circular' to his wife, she'd have said, "You can't say that, John" and he'd have had the opportunity to read what he'd written through another person's eyes. I rather doubt whether Leonardo J Octavianus discussed his comment with anyone else because a 'proof reader' would have advised him that it wasn't constructive and simply made him look foolish.

      Mr Octavianus has made me realise the degree to which these Brethren and their supporters live apart from the rest of us - separation is their rallying call, after all. The difficulty for them and for us is that this makes it almost impossible for anyone not 'with them" to hold a reasonable, informed discussion about important issues like the detriment and harm which have so badly affected so many people for more than half a century now.

    12. I think many PBCC members are "liquid" quite a lot of the time.

  26. When a member of the Exclusive Brethren is caught attending any mainstream church they are put under 'assembly discipline'. By attending a 'false' church, they have demonstrated that they are not fit for Christian fellowship and are barred from Exclusive Brethren meetings. They are often removed from the family home, disinherited and prohibited from any contact with any member of the Exclusive Brethren worldwide to prevent cross-contamination. Mainstream churches are described by Brethren as 'Rival Tables', as the real 'table' is the one that they have.. all others are opposing what the Lord has done so sovereignly through the unbroken line of Elect Vessels since the Recovery, when JND turned his back on the mainstream church and set up a rival faction.

    Not only are the Exclusive Brethren not a mainstream church, they broke away from it, continue to pronounce it as evil, and punish their members if they have any association with it. Even the ordinary members of society (not the false worshippers who attend a mainstream church) are so contaminatory, that the EB are not allowed to share a house wall with them, or even share an underground sewage pipe with them. Many had to dig up their gardens and redirect their pipes so that they did not have ungodly waste passing their land.

  27. Picking up on a reference to JN Darby volume 51

    The PBCC Exclusive Brethren claim to follow the teaching of John Nelson Darby as he apparently “recovered true Christianity”, it was his teachings and his interpretation and ideas that started the dubious concept of a “recovery of the truth” which the PBCC Exclusive Brethren hold to.

    The PBCC now desire to be known as a “mainstream Christian Church” which they haven’t a hope of, as they practice doctrines, actions and theology which is way, way, outside mainstream Christianity and the teachings of the Bible

    However, how does this no hope idea of them being a “mainstream Christian Church” fit with, match to, follow, obey the teachings of JN Darby who they claim to follow ! ?,

    See this quote of JN Darby from volume 51

    “Feeling that Christendom is corrupt, we are outside the church-world, by whatever name it is called.”

    Where is the "mainstream Christian Church" in that teaching ?

  28. To gather up a few loose ends here, I wonder if LJO/PBCC Ltd could substantiate his outrageous claim that this group are so much a requirement of "Christian" governments. Also, could he please define a "Christian" government for us?

    As far as I can see governments, of any persuasion, need the EB (PBCC Ltd) as much as the proverbial aperture in the cranium. Rather, the PBCC provide a rather large headache for Governments whose revenue departments have to unravel their complexity of "Trusts", pay out benefits to those ex PBCC members who have been impoverished by loss of inheritance and job etc. and deal with the aftermath of of PBCC destructive practices through social care and the courts, and that, just for starters.

    Local Authorities, and headteachers of mainsteam schools, now restricted almost exclusively to First Schools for the PBCC, have to run around in circles to satisfy the bizarre wishes of this organisation and their constant changes of direction. Re computers... they may be looked at, but not touched..... the keyboard may be touched, but only when.....etc etc. Officious "volunteer" PBCC parents might have to be in attendance at certain crucial times, and so on. I have seen a whole dossier of PBCC enforced requirements for placement in a mainstream school.

    Perhaps LJO/PBCC could come up with some evidence, and examples, of the benefits that this group provide "Christian" Governments.

  29. With further regard to PBCC beneficial impact on "Christian" governments...

    There is pressure by the PBCC Ltd on government health services as, with respect, PBCC members are not always the best custodians of their physical fitness; this is exacerbated by a heavy reliance on vehicles, by a lack of physical exercise (through recreation, sport and outdoor pursuits) excessive drinking, and, without wishing to cause offence, a rather excessive, carnivorous based diet. I believe that there is sect conformity, even in the matter of eating, to the point where vegetarians or vegans are, at worse, not allowed or, at best, regarded as misfits. However, I would be grateful if LJO/PBCC could clarify this for us; I would be glad to apologise, if proved incorrect.

    Good governments are keen for their citizens to take some responsibility for their physical health. I do hope the PBCC have the respect of, and are valued by, governments and nations in this regard.

  30. How many 'mainstream' churches do you know that send two 'priests' round to interrogate a married couple about what a visitor to their house found underneath their bed???????

    It's freaky.

  31. I think if you have time to read all 73 comments on this thread you will get a complete overview of the EB as it stands at present, covering just about every sad and sordid topic, assisted ably by Leonardo - maybe he is on the side of good after all and is just prompting with his nonsense to have the truth revealed.

  32. I quite agree, LJO/PBCC Ltd Department of Rebuttals is an excellent catalytic converter in the unlikely event anyone had lingering doubts that the EB/PBCC Ltd were a harmless "mainstream" church and a force for good.

    1. My opinion is that LJO is no more a current Brethren than Wayne Rooney is. He is just an excellent wind up merchant. He just drops a few juicy comments in along with some self-aggrandisement and sits back to watch everyone else fall for it hook, line & sinker. He must be a sadistic person.
      Keeps the comments flowing in of course !!
      That is my personal opinion anyway. 10 out of 10 Leo for winding us all up!
      I might have a go myself one day, just to prove the point!!

    2. Wayne Rooney is likely to come under assembly discipline for his "unequal yoking" as a member of the England team, playing a wicked contact sport in sporting arenas. The team were doomed!

      Whatever the origins of LJO - sadistic, or otherwise, it is tempting to ignore the ridiculous contributions as not worthy of time or effort in replying. However, he does serve as a vehicle to drive home all that is bad about the PBCC, as the replies from commentators provide evidence to the public of all the unchristian harm and detriment emulating from this cult and the need for reparations to those they have damaged. At the moment, there is no evidence that their position has changed one iota, apart from allowing themselves yet more worldly leeway to further their businesses and wealth creation.

    3. Spoof or not spoof,

      That’s just it. When the real beliefs and entrenched sectarianism of the Exclusive Brethren are uncovered, it sounds so crazy, ridiculous, unchristian, deluded and cultish that one does initially wonder if someone is pulling your leg !

      Its not until you ‘ve been a member and are an ex member, or have done in depth research into their history and practices, or have been unfortunate enough to have had relatives trapped in the system, or have had in depth discussions with a member managing to expose the real practices through repeated questioning, that you realise its not a spoof and these people are actually serious !

      Brother Rev

    4. I did submit this comment yesterday but I see it hasn't been published so I guess I must have done something wrong!!
      I was saying that I am convinced LJO is a complete spoof. No one claiming to represent any group would put their foot in it EVERY time like he does. not even a fool would sound so arrogant if he were genuinely trying to convey a positive impression of anything to anybody!!!
      I am convinced that he is just seeking to wind us all up for some crazy reason of his own and it annoys me because instead of interesting and stimulating debate we just end up having repetitive stuff. I say - GO AWAY LJO, you are wasting our time!

    5. Even spoofs have some value. We don’t need to know whether LJO is a spoof, an EB, an ex-EB, deluded, deceived, sincere, sane, insane or none of the above. What matters more are the things he says, which do in fact represent what a lot of EB think, believe it or not. You even find similar statements and attitudes in printed ministry. So even if he is a spoof some of what he says deserves a respectful reply, even if only for the sake of other EB readers that genuinely think that way.

    6. It does seem however that LJO has written the section on Social Life on the PBCC website!!

    7. No, this is not a spoof,

      These are actual real extracts from letters written by an EB member to her mother and sister (former members), at the time of the infamous deceitful and hypocritical “review” of 2002/3

      Note - references to “Aberdeen” refer to the Aberdeen 3 day meetings in 1970 which caused a division when the universal man of god leader James Taylor Junior, was found to be drunk on stage, using unchristian foul language and later found in bed with another mans wife.


      “we didn’t want to argue as to Aberdeen but God can use mysterious ways and who are we to question them. Mr Taylor was a pure man and was meeting a corrupt condition amongst us. I know it was hard to understand with the human mind, but you got help at the time…….”

      “You have obviously listened a lot to those opposed and this has influenced you, but I feel the Lord has not left you alone and we all need help to understand Gods ways. I don’t think you will get help from those you meet with now….”

      “I can see xx is very fixed in his thinking it it grieved us when he spoke against the men of god. I would appeal to him to be very careful when speaking about those whom god has chosen to carry out the Lords work down here”

      “….we still have a lot to review and we can only take humble ground”

      “There are a lot of things you may not have understood about the leader you mentioned but I can assure you he had to take those unusual ways which brought out the opposition against him, gods ways are not always what we think naturally, but if we just accept then he helps us to understand”

      End of extracts

      There are many more in the same vein, some much more extreme. I post these extracts to illustrate that even if Leonardo could be a spoof, his views, dogma and doctrines are not, and they are in fact the crazy twisted non biblical doctrines, double speak and hypocrisy of the PBCC EB

  33. The Questioner25 June 2014 at 12:02

    You couldn't make EB-ism up. It is beyond irony.

    1. “You couldn't make EB-ism up. It is beyond irony.”

      No, we couldn’t make it up. Apart from anything else, it would be immoral to create such a malign and oppressive belief system.

      Even if we were as imaginative as Hans Christian Andersen, as creative as Leonardo Da Vinci, as egomaniacal as Ozymandias and as mad as Rasputin, there is still the little matter of conscience. No honest or benevolent person, no matter how creative, could knowingly invent something so false and harmful.

  34. So were Harry Trundletwerp and his girlfriend at the Hastings outreach day last year with local MP Amber Rudd, or not? The PBCC's own blog reported that they were for about 7 months and then that report mysteriously disappeared. Can anyone explain why?

    Separating fact from fiction is becoming more and more difficult with the recently rebranded PBCC, who are already claiming that they have never called themselves Exclusive Brethren despite initially having a website at www.theexclusivebrethren.com

    Will we soon be hearing that quidditch is now being played at Focus Learning Trust child indoctrination centres?

  35. The Questioner25 June 2014 at 17:33

    They can't deny that website: I have a copy of it.

    1. Interesting point about the old name and website

      Their claims to have never called themselves Exclusive Brethren and to never have had a website under that name, just shows how naive they are about the internet. It is very difficult to erase something once put online for public viewing. Their old website is still viewable if you know how. I understand slides of it were presented to the UK Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee investigations in 2012, to assist with clarification of who they were dealing with, such was the muddying of waters by Garth Christie et el and the EB corporate spin misinformation machine. The PBCC EB testimony to the Parliamentary Committee was yet another shameful unchristian episode in the history of Exclusive Brethrenism.

      In case the PBCC legal team manage to erase internet history, I too took some screen shots of the old website just before it was taken off line, the shots are dated 10/11/2012.

      Brother Rev

    2. Shocking to hear how a so-called "mainstream Christian church", it's leaders and apologists, such as the iniquitous Leonardo, who litters this blog, should set out to lie and deceive so. I note that Leonardo informs us he is engaged in business. I do hope that I never have to do business with him, nor, indeed, with any other PBCC business, if deceit is at the core of their culture.

  36. The thing is, see, the HEB/PBCC have no need to provide evidence for any of their ridiculous claims or illogical actions. Why would you even think you have to debate or discuss things properly with others, when you secretly know that you're so far above all nonHEB, spiritually? There's simply no call to justify one's position when that position is as close to God as is possible on earth.

    They're so sure of their superiority they hardly ever need to say it out loud even amongst themselves, but 'superior' is definitely what they think they are. LJO - spoof or otherwise - has that arrogance down to a fine art, as he demonstrates on this blog. Joan's recognition of the extreme insularity and spiritual pride of the HEB (22June 9:10) is right on the button. It sometimes feels like there's just nowhere to GO with them, ensconced as they are in their own separatist cul-de-sac of weirdness.

    1. I still think LJO is a complete spoof. Even a complete fool doesn't put his foot in it EVERY time!!!! LJO cooks his goose every time he comments, I believe that this is deliberate - as I say no-one could make such a muck-up of representing any group unless they were doing so on purpose.
      He just detracts from genuine comment and causes repetition and time-wasting.
      I say BOG OFF LJO!!, leave this blog to genuine persons and interesting debates.

  37. Trevor, you are right when you highlight that "there's just nowhere to GO with them".

    I regret the lack of progress as I've tried to develop normal, friendly relationships with various members of the PBCC.

    In education, if there's a child who's stuck and apparently unable to make the progress required, the teacher will look at what interests her pupil and try to build a learning programme on that. Friends with a five year old son, who was not coping at all with the initial stages of learning to read, invited me to work with him on Saturday mornings. Timothy loved going to the car wash, so I arranged a visit with him to the garage and my husband kindly took photos of him in my car while it was being washed. I made a book of the photos and Timothy supplied the text for each photo which I added to the book. It did the trick! Now, in his thirties, Timothy still sometimes shows me his car wash book when I visit him and his family.

    This year the PBCC said about themselves, under the heading "Faith in Practice":

    "1. The fundamental principles of our faith are those contained in Holy Scriptures known as the Holy Bible (being the King James Version or a New Translation from the original languages by JN Darby.)"


    It has seemed reasonable to me, therefore, to try to build a relationship with some of these Brethren on our common interest in the Bible. I've tried, always courteously and I hope generously, to open up avenues of discussion so that we could value the Bible together. I'm aware that they take a fundamentalist approach to the interpretation of the sacred documents and I've never sought to be argumentative or contentious. Chiefly I've stuck to the non-controversial areas of history and archaeology, in the hope that we could establish a common interest in the background to the writing of the biblical literature and begin to share our findings and learn together.

    Two or three 'brothers' have been grateful when I've raised matters, suggested further reading or sent a relevant book for them to read, but in truth even my gentle, quiet approach has led nowhere. For some reason - presumably James Taylor Junior's separatist direction and Bruce D Hales's terror of higher education - these Brethren can't participate in any worthwhile discussion of the Bible with someone who isn't their ecclesiastical 'sister'.

    How can we make progress, I wonder? I recall that the apostle Paul wrote to the churches of Galatia, "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

    1. Joan, the approach that you used with the child usually works with adults too, and is convincingly described as applicable to adults in Dale Carnegie’s book, “How to make friends and influence people.” So you are understandably surprised that your approach has not worked with the Brethren.

      I think I can guess why. You have tried to choose topics for discussion that the Brethren are interested in, but I don’t think many of the prominent leaders have a genuine interest in the historical context, circumstances, intentions, connotations and meanings of biblical writings. A perusal of their printed ministry shows that they tend to use biblical verses merely as a hook on which to hang the ideas that they want to promote. For that purpose, it doesn’t matter one whit what the verses actually mean, or why, when, where, for whom or by whom they were written.

      Indeed, an honest, objective study of the scriptures would be counter-productive for the Brethren’s purposes, because it would expose the fact that a great deal of their ministry and practices have no real biblical foundation at all.

      A completely different topic that you might be able to interest them in is how to reform their practices in such a way that they can safeguard their charitable status and cash-flow while preventing their system from falling apart completely.

  38. Leo wrote

    "The best way to understand the PBCC is to go along to a meeting and be ready to open your heart to God in a fresh way. Pride has to be cast into the fire where it belongs."

    No the best way to understand the PBCC is to speak to (ex)members who have been cast out for having had a cellphone or a computer and they and other (ex)members who have had their families ripped apart by the savagery of the brethren and whose families have been touched by suicide, abuse and maybe even murder.

    I don't know why LJO keeps mentioning God in his postings. This 'church' is savage and evil and has nothing to do with God, nor (in my view) does anything that God would want to be associated with.

    And as for "Common sense is close to Christianity. Common sense is also intelligence. All the fitness God requireth is for you and I to feel our need of him. No need to study or take a course on how to do this at a Godforsaken university" next time that fat arrogant leader of yours climbs into his jet, or the next bunch of peebs go off to a drying out clinic (which they often do - FACT) just remember that none of this would be possible without pilots, aeronautical engineers, nurses and the live having been to university.

    You really are a sick person.

    1. LJO is a gifted and valuable contributor on here and also has a good sense of humour. Wind-up merchant or not, I enjoy his posts.
      He comes out with some really thought provoking comments which gees-up people who are stuck in the past.
      A good grasp of the bible and knows how to apply it in a way we can all relate to. Keep it up my dear fellow.

      What a thoroughly bloody good bloke aff aff aff aff

    2. Anon 28 June 18:49

      “He comes out with some really thought provoking comments which gees-up people who are stuck in the past”

      Nothing in the past about what’s in this thread my friend, all of the unbiblical, unchristian, harmful practices detailed in this thread are bang up to date current in 2014, such as –

      - Separation from all other Christians and Churches
      - Separation from all non members
      - No eating or drinking with non members, even if they are Christians
      - Members not allowed to worship, commune or fellowship with any other Christians
      - Divided families with generations split apart, even if relatives are Christians
      - Teaching that an alcoholic womaniser found in bed with another mans wife is “pure”
      - Accepting babes in arms at the communion table with no profession of faith
      - teaching that “ministry of men” is authoritative on the same level as the Bible
      - Teaching that if members leave the group, they cant be Christian
      - Teaching that all Churches who have elders, pastors, etc are in error and not fit
      - teaching that “there is only one place” and the brethren have “the recovery”
      - teaching that only the brethren do things the right way
      - controlled by and deference to a “one man ministry” the universal leader “B Hales”
      - teaching that other Christian Churches don’t follow “biblical paul’s ministry”
      - If members leave they will be separated from family, even if they are Christians
      Etc etc

      All of this and much much more is all current and has been causing damage, harm & detriment for over 40 years right up to the current date June 2014 as it is all still practiced !.

      My friend, its not in the past its all still current !

      “A good grasp of the bible and knows how to apply it in a way we can all relate to”

      My friend, if he (LJO), or you, have a good grasp of the Bible why don’t you explain using the Bible why you practice what you do ?

      My friend, if he (LJO), or you, can relate to how you apply the Bible, then why don’t you explain further, using Bible references to support your application ?

      Why don’t you start with the list of practices I’ve detailed above, and give Biblical references to support them ?

  39. Also, next time the PBCC use their ill gained financial muscle to sue one of their victims for daring to speak the truth, they should reflect that there wouldn't be any legal practitioners, nor, indeed, any rule of law established on precedent. Not that would bother this authoritarian and undemocratic group since they consider themselves to be above the law or, as one PBCC commentator wrote on a previous blog "We are the law - get used to it."

    1. 08:31 - I cannot help but agree to that comment if indeed it was said -

      " We are the law - get used to it" That belief is indeed true in itself, but I think that the PBCC as a group would say they simply accept the position God has placed them, in rather than making such a claim.

      Jesus Christ, Paul, Stephen and John all had persons wondering at the authority of which they spake. Some hated it and were opposed or contentious, whilst others embraced it and were completely changed.

      There is therefore quite easy to understand the reason the PBCC is being so targeted and hated. One can only conclude it is because of the undeniable authority held by them due to God's Divine Sovereignty.
      I personally don't think they claim to hold such authority, such is their humility, but it is clear they do hold considerable sway over governments by the power of prayer and influence. Whether we approve or disapprove makes no difference to where God has set them.

      Whilst their presence is here, the habitable earth continues to function.
      We know there will be a new heaven and new earth, but until that dispensation commences, the brethren will continue to be much needed.

      The centurion respected that authority even though he was in command of men. His attitude affected even Jesus. It says - Jesus wondered at him.

      We therefore either wonder and perish or we can accept that authority and be affected by it. Authority is very attractive. The spirit of the world rejects authority and questions it, but we should respect authority and thank God for it. God has permitted democracy, but it is not his ideal.

      The Divine right of Kings will thus be fully restored in a day to come.

      Leonardo J Octavianus
      Not a member of the PBCC,
      yet fully accept the authority they represent

    2. LIAR. Why the El would anyone in their right mind support a group which( in it's own words) bases everything on the purity of former MOG JT Jnr? He was caught fair and square, naked in bed with the wife of another man, while his own wife remained home in New York too embarrassed by his behaviour to accompany him to Scotland.

      On the upside, thank you very much for helping Laurie achieve a very creditable 200,000 hits on his blog. Well done Laurie and thank you LJO for highlighting the sheer deceitfulness of the PBCC and any fool who supports their increasingly money based cult religion. Remember Hitler's first love was money.

    3. Gods Word, the Bible, says the following -

      Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

      Now the PBCC EB don’t obey this verse, because -

      - They separate from the whole of the rest of the Body of Christ, that is, all other Christians and Christian Churches outside of themselves

      - They refuse to eat or drink with any other Christian or any other non member

      - Any member who leaves the group to worship, fellowship, commune with other Christians in the rest of the Body of Christ, is “withdrawn from”, cut off.

      These actions, and many others, are not obeying Galatians 5.14. This illustrates that the PBCC EB don’t obey Gods Word in the Bible, which means they don’t obey Gods Laws. So to say “We are the law - get used to it" is simple straightforward heresy and blasphemy

      We know it to be heresy and blasphemy because Gods Word confirms the following -

      1 John 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

      Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

      A religious group claiming to be Christian, but then not obeying Gods Word in the Bible, could never ever be seen in Gods eyes as “We are the law - get used to it” !! if a group claims such a thing (as it appears the PBCC EB try to do), then they are clearly heretics.

    4. Leonardo, 28 June 17:26

      “The centurion respected that authority even though he was in command of men. His attitude affected even Jesus. It says - Jesus wondered at him”

      Wow, what a twisted application,

      The centurion in the Bible recognised the authority of God as displayed through Christ Himself. Jesus Christ displayed the authority of God because he was obeying Gods commands and what God had planned for Him, He was the fulfilment of Gods plan.

      That has nothing to do with the PBCC EB at all !.

      The PBCC EB have no such authority, because they are “NOT” carrying out Gods commands as instructed for all Christians, in Gods Word, the Bible.

      The PBCC EB ignore vast swathes of the Bible !. They also invent new rules, not found in the Bible. The PBCC EB follow the “teaching of men” not the teaching of Gods Word, the Bible.

      The Apostle Paul warned against such groups who practice such things, read your Bible, read Paul’s ministry in Ephesians, Galatians, Titus, Colossians . Over a 1000 years before the PBCC EB were invented by JN Darby, FE Raven, J Taylor and Bruce Hales, the apostle Paul describes such groups as the PBCC EB and “Warns Against Them” !

    5. Funny how the great truths the PBCC hang onto keep changing, when God himself changes not. Even stuff based on scripture and enforced mercilessly for many years have been thrown out with the bathwater now. Head coverings for sisters being the latest prime example. One day it's not allowed, next day it is......Computers, mobile phones, beaches. limited companies, old people's homes, Facebook pages....the list is endless. The really odd thing about the PBCC is the lack of personal choice and the obvious individual lack of conviction over such matters. If you genuinely believed sister's head coverings were essential for fellowship, why change your mind at the drop of a scarf?

      When we used to sing 'we change, He changes not' I hadn't realised how derogatory we were being. As if by changing, we were one up on God Himself!

    6. Thank you Leo for expounding your beliefs relating to the Halesian cult. Do you have any evidence, say from the news anywhere in the world to back up your assertions. I think they are preposterous, but then I believe the Bible. Give me some evidence though. I'm really interested.

    7. Leonardo J Octavianus, you say

      'We need the PBCC for sure, so don't knock them without considering why they are here'

      Well I will continue to knock them as you describe it
      I looked for you to convince me, but you haven,t

      I cite 3 reasons for not supporting you, from your posting of 28 June 2014 17:26
      1 - You posted this at 17:26 but haven't helped as to my earlier inquiry 28 June 2014 11:27
      2 - I don't find EB humility. I find the EB very arrogant, and they do claim "we are the church" with no allowance for other real Christians
      3 - I wonder at your God given conscience. If you are so sure the EB are so right, why have you not become a member? I can only assume, until you tell me otherwise that perhaps you are serving time for being a serial murderer and know the EB won't accept you


  40. Leonardo J Octavianus

    Thank you for your reply to mine of 18 June 2014 18:30
    Sorry for delay in corresponding further

    You say "It is a question of what purpose the PBCC serves"
    I'd like you to enlarge on this, as in my dealings with the EB,
    So I do wonder what purpose do the EB serve?

    You say "We need the PBCC for sure"
    Well you could argue 'we need Jimmy Savile'
    He helped a lot of people and raised a lot of money
    Would you LJO, say that charges against him should be forgotten
    After all it was only a few he harmed compared to the good works
    Don't you think the authorities should be positive and sweep it all under the carpet?


  41. In the UK at the moment there's a lot of public concern about the way in which some powerful men have groomed (mostly) girls and young women to accept emotional and sexual abuse. These men have sometimes told their victims that they will gain professional or personal advantage if they comply; sometimes they have said that the victim was 'asking for it' and really enjoyed what was done to them; sometimes they have insisted that their victims remain silent about what has happened lest dreadful things happen to them - often saying that no-one will believe them anyway.

    In mainstream churches, if church leaders were to subject girls, women and young people to emotional or spiritual abuse of any kind, their fathers, brothers and husbands, and the men of the congregation, would be free to speak out and protest and, hopefully, the matter would be dealt with so that victims were protected from such abuse - and the powerful abuser would lose his position and possibly face a criminal prosecution.

    I am very concerned at the way the Exclusive Brethren leaders since James Taylor Jnr's days in the 1960s have treated girls, women and young people who, it appears, have no proper public voice in the Brethren meetings. It's immensely worrying when Exclusive Brethren men, who do speak in public, have failed to protest at the abuse meted out by their powerful leaders who have even sometimes been called 'The Man of God', "The Elect Vessel', 'The CEO' and other similar titles.

    Bruce D Hales is so powerful that he has declared that if a young person leaves the Brethren they go into 'oblivion'. That is abusive. He doesn't agree with a university education and has said on a number of occasions that higher education is 'narrowing'. That is abusive because he is using his power to restrict his followers' educational and career opportunities. Bruce D Hales has declared that James Taylor Jnr, who introduced dress and hairstyle regulations for female Brethren, who groped some women members and was unfaithful to his wife with a consenting woman follower, was a 'pure man'. That is abusive - in the sense that it reinforces the validity of James Taylor Jnr's lifestyle and directives which humiliated women members.

    In my view, it's time that the men in the PBCC spoke out about the misuse of power by their leaders in the past fifty years.

    1. To say that studying at university is “narrowing” is one of the milder things Brethren leaders have said about education. There have been much worse. Jim Taylor insisted that school was enough education, and you should only give your children as much secular education as the Law requires (see Ministry of James Taylor Jr. Vol. 6 page 607; New York, 1959-1961). Fortunately that is one of his rules that the current leadership have discarded. He even criticised those parents who want their children to do well at school (see Vol. 6, page 405; New York, 1959-1961).

      In 1967 he told the Brethren that education makes you narrow-minded, (see Vol. 77 page 15; New York, 24 March 1967) and reminded them several times that higher education is very dangerous, (see Vol. 124, page 234-235; New York, 12 April 1967); indeed all school is dangerous (See Vol. 116, page 138; Neche, 22-23 March 1968).

      Jim Symington said he regarded book knowledge as nauseating and obnoxious (see Ministry of J. H. Symington, Vol. 13, pages 30-31; Seattle, 27-28 April 1973) and twice he declared that to pursue a degree is a slight on the Holy Spirit, a phrase that would remind Brethren of the unforgivable sin (see Vol. 53 page 126; Knoxville, 19 May 1978 and Vol. 93 page 116; Neche, 24 July 1981).

      During his time as universal leader from 1987 to 2002, Mr John Hales, despite having a degree, spoke strongly against universities and university degrees, against subjects studied at university, and against qualities associated with educated people. Thus, for example, he spoke scathingly against science, against literature, against ancient history, against the human intellect, against the right to hold your own opinion and against democracy. He declared that the higher level of education is not consistent with the Christian path (see Ministry of John S. Hales New Series Vol. 23 page 261).

      Despite his contempt for science, he expounded his own version of scientific facts. He rejected the consensus scientific view of overpopulation, (“just a lot of complete and utter bunk”), evolution (“the lie of Satan”), the way diamonds are formed (it was actually “the pressure of Noah’s flood” that created diamonds), and the scientific study of history (“you should get an explanation of history from God, not from scientific men”).

      A reader might suspect John Hales of making a covert assault on intellect and reason, but it was not covert: it was deliberate and explicit. He complained that “the intellectual thing, the natural thing, the human reasoning has pretty well dominated the position for generations.” He complained that intellectual people “just about drive you up the wall.” He taught that “all that is written and come in through the side of human understanding and reasoning should be disallowed.” He taught that “All these lawyers and students and scholars and professors and what not . . . they can't teach you anything.”

      These are only a very small sample of the many crazy statements about education made by one leader after another. Compared with these decades of wildly irrational ranting against education, learning and reason, the present leader’s views are comparatively mild.

      Comparatively mild, and yet I still think Joan is right to call it abusive. I believe the Exclusive Brethren system is so riddled with blatant falsehood and deceit that it can only be swallowed by a population that is kept in the dark. Maybe that is the conscious purpose of the severe restrictions on learning and thinking, or maybe not, but either way it is still abusive.

    2. Thank you, Ian, for marshalling this information about the Exclusive Brethren's leaders' attitude to education. I hadn't realised the extent to which such an irrational and vehement opposition to learning was a part of their teaching.

    3. Ian, that detail on “what the great men say” on education and learning makes shocking reading and I concur with your last paragraph.

      It reminds me of the old saying about growing mushrooms, which is blunt and to the point “keep them in the dark and feed them crap” !

      Information control, spin, deceit, and spreading fear and paranoia are vital to the continuity of the Exclusive Brethren.

      For example,
      The EB’s are not allowed to go to any other Christian Church (of any denomination or non denomination), to experience worship, communion, fellowship etc with other Christians. So EB’s have no idea at all what is taught in any other Christian Church, or what sort of worship, or Bible discussions they have. They have no idea what the different styles of service are, or what types of persons lead services, or what the life of a Christian is outside of EBism. They have no idea what the depth of teaching is, what evangelism is carried out, how other Churchs get involved in charity work, how other churches work together. They have no idea how the Bible is applied in any other Christian Church, or about how other Christian Churches follow biblical instructions regards administration or discipline. In short they are kept ignorant of the real history and present day reality of the Christian Church outside of themselves.

      The EB members are still fed a diet of falsehoods, assumptions, half truths, spin, lies, etc in an attempt to spread fear and paranoia amongst the members about the Christian Church outside of the walls of EBism, in order to bind the group together and ensure members are fearful of leaving. Examples of this diet of deceit and wild baseless assumptions about Christendom (all other Christian Churches non denominational or denominational), could be – Nowhere else understands about the bride of Christ or the assembly – nowhere else follows Pauline ministry – you cant be a christian if you leave the brethren – nowhere else has the light or the teaching – the breaking of bread is not appreciated or given its place – Christendom is corrupt – the spirit of god is not there – they have one man ministry – the holy spirit is not free – the world is brought in – they have a lukewarm Christianity (Laodicea) – its full of systems of man – the churches have names so they are sects – every denomination has erred from the truth, we have ‘all’ the truth – Christ is not in the different churches in Christendom – they don’t have the mind of God – Christendom is unfaithful – Christ is dishonoured - Christendom is divided up into sects, more or less rivals, destructive to christianity. The Lord is moving on other lines - 'Outside the camp' means that we have given up christendom, really, as a camp - Christendom denies the heavenly character of the assembly and it becomes an organisation for the world. - there is nothing in the way of freshness - there is no christian circle in the Church of England – etc etc

      This is the “Mushroom Principle” in action

      In the context of the PBCC EB being a supposed Christian group, this kind of teaching and tactics is entirely dishonouring to Christ and damaging to the Christian Faith

    4. Excellent summary and deserves to find a place, headlining a discussion, on a new page,

      Incidentally, the EB(PBCC) appear to rely very heavily on those contemptible lawyers!