Monday, 3 March 2014

Sooner or later - the fraud that is the Exclusive/Plymouth Brethren - will be exposed in all of its twisted reality. And hopefully their judgment day will be on earth - and not heaven

From Wikipeebia; http://wikipeebia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=462

When you get to my age you know what is right and wrong. Whatever religious or life influences have grappled with you, over the years they all become clear - and the truth is glaringly before you. It's not so much that you have gained some wisdom along the way - but more that things have become black and white.

Where for years I regarded the EB with some respect - probably because my family was among them - this has now dissolved to a residual anger that these people have gotten away with an awful lot - largely unchallenged. In the last 10 years - they have become sneakier, they lie to suit their aims, they break their own rules and they faun to a leader who is clearly feathering his family's nest. Going by his new home and new vehicle -being a MOG is a very lucrative profession. 

I think back to why I left all those years ago. It wasn't because I was particularly rebellious or non-conforming. It wasn't that I did not see good in some people. But the ones that mattered - the cage rattlers - the would be leaders- were the reason I walked away. Well them and their silly bloody rules that didn't make sense. 
Look at the Brethren at a local level - and in almost any locality - and there was always a deep seated resentment and even hatred. One-upmanship, vindictiveness, family feuds - you name it. These people really did not like each other. The victorious moments when one got something on their enemy were legendary where I came from. A soap opera played out every week. And I thought at the time- we are supposed to be Christians.

But when the heavies started playing with young people lives - making decisions for them that would seriously affect their futures I walked away. I had people telling me I MUST work for the Brethren -people I might add who didn't work for the Brethren themselves. I wanted to do tertiary education - but was told this was not possible. Despite others doing it. And today they rudely proclaim - as if to thumb their noses at us -that their kids can go to University - and then return to the fold after they have finished. Extraordinary!

All that aside - any organisation that throws teenagers out into the gutter with nothing - as they did me- does not deserve respect. It is very obviously not a Christian based charter. Today they love to proclaim their good deeds making sandwiches for firefighters and shoveling snow for road traffic - while there is a generation or two of kids who were thrown away without even a backward glance on their parts. The ones with some nous are here talking about it. The others didn't make it. Many are dead. And while I now get bored with fighting their cruel anomalies on websites such as this - I will continue the fight through those who are motivated to fight them. Luckily these now include some heavyweight players in Great Britain. How refreshing to have a staunchly Christian Baroness taking up our cause so effectively. She sees them for what they are. 

I do detest the Exclusive /Plymouth Brethren. They are evil - they are cruel and they do not deserve respect. They destroy people. They change their rules that once inflicted a lifetime of pain on some people - with no regard for the fact that people are going to be extremely peeved about that. They throw people out and wreck their livelihoods and families for the slightest separation issue - and yet their leader has frequently broken this code himself - through his business dealings, his liaisons with a PR shyster and his comeback deals with a man who was booted out for 20 years and lived life to the full. He broke the strictly held eating and mixing issues several times here - even eating in 'worldly' people's homes.

When any organisation loses its credibility over things that are the cornerstone of its existence - you know you cannot believe in them anymore. And Hales' reversal of everything these past few years - to suit himself and his own fortunes - is a prime example of a corrupt, greedy, evil organisation that deserves to be taken apart and pulled down. 

This so called church has wrecked thousands of lives - and now uses every tool that the world provides to portray a sickly sweet charismatic front which is a world away from the real truth. It points people to its slick website - which is full of creative and totally dishonest PR babble - when people reading this would not realise that just having a website a few years ago destroyed dozens of families. If all these things they take for granted today are now blessed by their leader - why does he not put matters right and reinstate all those they threw out for owning a mobile phone or having a computer. Why does he not pay compensation for the businesses he wrecked and the families that were destroyed? The answer is simple. He doesn't want to lose any of his millions. And he doesn't wish to face the truth or admit his double standards. 

These people are inherently dishonest. Like the lifelong liar - they cannot even recognise the truth anymore. And many people in positions of power are either misinformed enough or non-caring enough to just let them get away with it. One thing I have learned in life is that the truth will always prevail. Sooner or later - the fraud that is the Exclusive/Plymouth Brethren - will be exposed in all of its twisted reality. And hopefully their judgment day will be on earth - and not heaven.

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  1. Laurie, there is a way to find answers and closure to the things that have troubled you and clearly still do. However, this is about the worst way to do it.
    All of us have to identify our own wrongdoings and find forgiveness, justice and peace through what Christ has done for us.Don't despise this day of grace. We have today, but we don't know about tomorrow. Everything that troubles you can be solved by the power of the gospel.
    However, it requires a giving-up of self will on your part and to have a change of attitude towards those brethren you are so unreasonably hostile to. They hold nothing against us and are ready to help. The brethren are not frauds and do not misinform their readers.
    Compare that to some of the horrible material found here and suddenly one can see they are not bad people at all.


    1. MP - You realise Laurie is not the author of the piece above. He's reporting it from elsewhere. Besides, getting right with God has nothing to do with getting right with the Exclusive Brethren, If I had left, say, the Mormons, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, I wouldn't need to get right with them to get right with God would I? A cult is a cult is a cult. It's the last place to get right with God.

    2. Author or not....That's a non starter Anon 08:59
      If Laurie is not wholly in agreement, he need not have posted it.
      If then he is not the author, his name should not be attached or associated with something so untrue and false about the PBCC. Get the point?


    3. There are a lot of charges against the PBCC, by some accusing them of being a cult. Some people resort to this name calling when they are on the defensive or unable to pin anything on them. As in Christs day, Paul's day and the current time, people who are not prepared to accept they are wrong, just stick that label on the brethren because it's easier than searching for evidence that does not exist. It boils-down to a cop-out by individuals unprepared to get right with God.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

    4. MP. Why should one only share what they agree with. You post on here and Laurie kindly publishes your comments. You may notice in due course that most may not agree with you. But to only publish what is agreed with would prevent genuine and honest debate. That is what cults, oppressive groups and dictatorships do. I am sure that you, as one who enjoys posting in public, would share the view that the EB tactic of only publishing comments they like is a negative one.


    5. So Leonardo JO - we should not call the brethren names... perhaps they would like to stop calling me names then! I have been called "that old Granny" but much worse also "the epitome of evil' and that I am 'persecuting Jesus' and 'doing Satan's work'. Isn't this the same thing - sticking a label on me because they don't know how to discuss sensibly with me? As you say it is easier to use a pejorative label than to search for evidence. I am also apparently a 'very unhappy woman' which anyone who knows me knows is not true! You can't have this both ways - if you don't want people on here to use the term cult or anything else then stop calling former members of the brethren things that are not true.

    6. MP and Leonardo J Octavianus,

      A few thoughts,

      - Please can you explain in detail, using quotes, and factual evidence, what parts of the article (which is the subject of this blog) are untrue ?

      - Ian’s comments are founded in truth, he even quotes your previous “Minister of the Lord in the Recovery – James Taylor Junior” have you read Ian’s comments ?

      - Leonardo J Octavianus, in your post at 3 March 2014 10:54 you say “it's easier than searching for evidence that does not exist” Mr O, the evidence does indeed exist, its just that you and your like minded are in denial of it !

      - The evidence exists in the CC Report of 2014, it exists in your own printed and published supposed Ministry, it exists in your own internal documents and letters, it exists in court documents and reports, it exists by comparing PBCC/EB practices to the Bible which is the Word of God, it exists in many published books written about the PBCC / EB, it exists in the testimony of those who have been harmed and ill treated by the PBCC/EB, it exists in the comments of you and your like minded which have been published in this blog, it exists in the recordings of meetings

      - “Getting right with God” has nothing to do with exposing the false teaching and harm and detriment created by the PBCC / EB. That’s a condescending cop out by you and your like minded, cynically using language to intimidate, aiming to try to evade the exposure of your false teaching, harm and detriment. Do you not know that the Bible teaches Christians to expose and rebuke false teaching and expose abuses of Gods Word ?

      - The Bible teaches Christians to speak out, expose and rebuke such things, see the following references – Titus 1, Acts 20:25-31, Acts 5: 29, Jude 1: 3-4, 2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 4, 1 Timothy 1, Matthew 7: 15, 1 John 4: 1-3, Colossians 2, Hebrews 4: 12, Hebrews 13: 9, 2 Timothy 1: 7-9, Galatians 1:8, and many more

      - It is the PBCC / EB corporate who need to get right with God, and free the membership from bondage to “Every Wind of Doctrine”

      - MP, I get the impression from reading your post at 3 March 2014 06:36, that you assume this blog is just about Laurie, using your assumption to directly attack him. You couldn’t be more wrong, yes the blog is operated by Laurie, but many others, myself included, speak out with Laurie to expose the false teaching, deceit and harm and detriment perpetrated by the PBCC / EB. Laurie is doing a public service. His blog speaks out on behalf of all those victims of the PBCC / EB who are too frightened by PBCC / EB intimidation tactics to speak up for themselves.

    7. LJO & MP. This is from http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm and is a more sociological view of what constitutes a cult. How many statements can you tick from your own experience in and of the Exclusive Brethren/PBCC.

      Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised

      Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

      Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.

      Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.

      ‪ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

      ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

      ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

      ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

      ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

      ‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

      ‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

      ‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

      ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

      ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

      ‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

      ‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

      ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

      ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

      ‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

    8. Jill, I don't think the PBCC do stick labels on you and neither would I.
      You have a habit of plastering labels all over yourself every time you speak ill of the brethren. If you were honest with yourself Jill, you would have to admit your accusations are to avoid facing-up to the issues or sin in your own life which confronts you.

      Rev - Please write some more. I didn't get your point. Sorry.

    9. MP and Octavianus are experts in winding-up dear old Rev and grinding him down to a slushy pulp..
      It's a bit like fishing. Pop something juicy into that little box and bingo he's hooked into a few thousand words. Pack it in chaps, you've had your fun.

    10. Excuse me Anonymous 13.:37 - please tell me where I have labelled myself? Also please point me to places where I have spoken ill of the brethren. As to issues or sin in my own life - pot calling kettle black comes to mind. That is a quite a self righteous thing to say don't you think? Over and out.

    11. Dearest Bro Rev - your post above doesn't make sense. I am thinking in particular of your last few points -
      you said -The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. I have read many times on this very blog that the Brethren do not bring in any new members - so make your mind up what they do!!

      ‪ You said -The group is preoccupied with making money. What is wrong with making money, what does everyone do? - how else would you pay the bills and provide for the future. Indeed how can you give money away unless you make it to start with?? There has been a global recession on and business has been tough, everyone who has survived has done so because they have worked hard and carefully.

      ‪You said - Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. Not in the Brethren - one hour a day is hardly excessive. I dare say you spend more time than this writing posts - perhaps you should start the Laurie Cult?

      ‪You said - Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. It makes sense to live with someone that you get on with, doesn't it (perhaps you don't, I wouldn't know)?? As for socializing, I speak to non-Brethren in this manner every day.

      ‪You said - The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. Not true - you know as well as I do that people have left and carried on successful peaceful lives.

      Now I expect that you will say that you didn't write these points but you extracted them from some scientific paper or journal. well you republished them on your post and so you are fully associated with them.

      Now by Dearest Rev am I correct in thinking that you have never actually been a member of the Brethren??

      PS - sorry I haven't been in contact recently but I have been away on business (oops sorry - making some money, please forgive me.)

    12. Robert, hello again,

      Is it deliberate, or do you just keep making errors of judgement, or mistakes, but you’re up to your old tricks again aren’t you !

      The tactics of misrepresentation, spreading deliberate confusion & misleading comments, trying to put words into persons mouths, etc are all at play again here in your post of 4 March 2014 23:49, just like they were in clear evidence on other blog posts elsewhere on this site.

      1. You address you post at 4 March 2014 23:49 to me, yet I did not make the post you refer to at Anon 3 March 2014 13:28 !

      2. The post made by Anon 3 March 2014 13:28 makes perfect sense if you actually take time to read it without trying to deliberately cause misrepresentation and confusion !. The poster never says, or even implies “All” the points apply to the PBCC / EB, as you try to imply from your desperate attempts to cause confusion. In fact the poster qualifies all the points listed by the comment in the first sentence !

      3. The first sentence says “How many statements can you tick from your own experience in and of the Exclusive Brethren/PBCC” !!!

    13. Hello Robert, I wrote the post 'Anon 3 March 2014 13:28'

      I asked the EB/PBCC a question. I did not comment on the validity of any statement. I left that to their own conscience and intelligence.

      Yet, it seems you Robert have misconstrued the post. Maybe you didn't read it properly? Or maybe that was wilful?

      Furthermore it's not taking any one of these characteristics in isolation that defines a cult, it's when the majority are true that warning bells should be ringing.

      And, Robert, the provenance of the quote is given. Read it for yourself if your Peebputer allows you too. It's from the International Cultic Studies Association who look at various cults worldwide and find these are common denomination attributes. Not all of them, one by one, but in the main. How do you think the EB/PBCC stack up against this list? Or the theological list which *was* posted by Brother Rev?

      PS - in your beloved Darby translation:

      1 Timothy 6:10

      10 For the love of money is [the] root of every evil; which some having aspired after, have wandered from the faith, and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

      Or in the more readable and better translated NIV:

      10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

    14. Well timed Robert
      I think Rev has to take a step back and rethink his schemes.
      Not that anything he says is relevant or true, but it might save him many more hours of empty and contentious waffle


    15. MP, you write about Rev, “Not that anything he says is relevant or true.” That is an extreme statement. Do you really believe it? I have heard of automatic, unthinking, blanket denial, but I seldom see it as extreme as this.

    16. Ian. Exactly. It's quite scary that people are not thinking critically, but rather in the light of evidence, particularly Scriptural evidence ignoring that evidence in order to maintain their own worldview.

    17. MP Anon 5 March 2014 13:24

      You clearly haven’t read my post of 5 March 2014 07:36, (in particular Point 1.), if you had, you would not have made the comments you have !

      Having now been reminded to read my post of 5 March 2014 07:36, and Point 1 in particular, showing Roberts post has nothing to do with Rev, why your logic leads you to say - “Well timed Robert I think Rev has to take a step back and rethink his schemes” !! ?

      In fact the author of the post Robert refers to makes another post at Anon 5 March 2014 08:53, but you clearly haven’t read that either, or you would not make the comments you have !

      Rather than trying to stir up confusion and misrepresenting what persons say, your time would be put to better use if you addressed the issues and questions raised

    18. MP: Please read 'Anonymous 5 March 2014 08:53' where I noted "Yet, it seems you Robert have misconstrued the post. Maybe you didn't read it properly? Or maybe that was wilful?"

      I then commented on my previously unanswered questions. Would one of you be gracious enough to answer them now?

    19. Robert
      Why have you not answered my question on the Blake Envlopes thread ~ 1 March 2014 12:07?

      Vic R Paul

    20. Hello Mr Paul
      what was your question?

    21. Dear Rev-up, may I reply to your most thoughtful post of 5th March 2014 07.36.
      First may I apologise for making you splutter into your all-bran.
      Secondly - I did assume that you had posted the entry to which I was alluding, its length made me think that you had indeed put it forward.
      Thirdly - I note that you are up to your old tricks of launching verbal assaults on anyone who dare to disagree to you whilst not answering any questions that have been put to you.
      May I ask you again - have you ever actually been a member of the Brethren?
      (I look forward to your vitriolic response)

    22. Poor old Rev -
      Drawn in like a moth to a flame.
      Leave the poor fellow alone.

    23. Silence is golden eh Rev?

    24. Robert
      When you posted your comment here on 5 March 2014 22:52
      had you read mine of 1 March 2014 12:07 on the Blake Envlopes thread?

      Vic R Paul

  2. The author writes, “When any organisation loses its credibility over things that are the cornerstone of its existence - you know you cannot believe in them anymore.”

    That rather sums up the history of the Exclusives. From their earliest days they have been discarding cornerstones as carelessly as a child discards Lego bricks.

    One of the cornerstones of Protestantism was the supremacy of scripture over the dictates of leaders, such as the Pope. The Brethren still pretend to subscribe to that principle, but they have completely discarded it in practice. From Jim Taylor onwards, the leaders have assumed the right to overrule the clear, explicit teachings of Jesus and Paul. A glaring example was Jim Taylor’s insistence that if a wife or husband is withdrawn from, their spouse should separate from them morally, physically and legally. Jesus and Paul both taught exactly the opposite, in very explicit terms. Another glaring example is this:

    J.T.Jr. Well, they had better listen to me instead of Paul just now. (Nostrand Avenue, 9th August 1970)

    The most radical cornerstone of the Brethren movement, one that distinguished them from all other denominations, was that they professed to meet on non-sectarian ground, and would receive at the Lord’s table any godly Christian, sound of faith. That cornerstone lasted until about 1848, when JND decided they should only receive those who agreed with him. Thereafter the Exclusives became progressively more sectarian, and are now contending for the dubious accolade of being the most sectarian church in existence. “We are the Church.” “Only we are the Church.”

    More recently we had the rather absurd tests of fellowship surrounding the possession of a computer, a fax machine, a digital camera, a mobile phone or dear knows what else. Even computer-controlled car ignition and editing typewriters were under suspicion at one time. Little did the Brethren know that a typical home has more than 100 computer-controlled devices.

    These were cornerstones and matters of principle to the extent that you could get thrown out for possessing a non-approved gadget, and people indeed were, but as with many other Brethren principles, they can be changed if there are business reasons for changing them. Mammon was one god who definitely out-ranked Jim Symington.

    When a church’s principles are as easily discarded as the core, founding principles of the Brethren movement, then you know something is very far wrong. As the author of the above article said, “You know you cannot believe in them anymore.”

    1. I understand that even special alarm devices for the elderly, alone in their own homes, were not allowed because of the technology they utilised. I knew of one such elderly lady who fell, could not get up and lay on the floor for part of a day and all night because she could not raise the alarm. I believe the alarm was eventually raised by her "worldly" neighbour who noticed the curtains had not been pulled back. The elderly woman was then taken to hospital.


    2. Notapublicbenefit - may I intrude and say that your imagination is running wild, from my own experience that has never been the case.
      You will be stating that Brethren don't have watches next!! Let alone irons!

    3. Dear Anon 23.31 Are you sure that due to rapid corners being turned your memory may no longer be clear on this issue? There was a whole raft of banned technology, depending on radio waves, I believe. As I recall, the lady (now deceased) was told that a certain type of alarm, the most flexible, could not be used because it was similar to some other banned device. However, these circumstances may have changed, along with all the other revisions. You might also consider that local leaders, or even individuals, may have had their own ideas of what was in, or out. After all, it must be difficult to keep abreast of the rapid changes that the recovery was revealing. What is indisputable is that she was neglected for rather a long time, before the alarm was raised; subsequently, being admitted to hospital.

      I am sure the Brethren have wonderful watches, which they must not look at during devotions, and their nice shirts are the result of many a subservient sister slaving over a hot iron!

      Digressing from technology, to something more earthy, I would never be silly enough to state that Brethren have to have their own sewage outlets from their dwellings, uncontaminated with effluent from their detached neighbours. Now, who would believe that? Fantastical!


    4. Hello Napb - in the country I live in, each house does have its own sewage outlet, I don't where you live but the plumbing must be very complicated if you all share each others sewage pipes.
      I am thinking of my own house, the pipe runs straight out into the road and joins the public sewer. I honestly cant think of anyone I know who has other peoples sewers running across their property.
      Your situation sounds very challenging, do you share toilets with other households, do you take turns to clean it? the mind boggles.

      going back to your initial point about a radio pager or alarm device, my old mum had one of those and I didn't know it was a problem.
      Thank you for your comments regarding my watch and my shirt - I actually iron my own shirts, so a real compliment!

    5. #Notapublicbenefit

      As suspected we're talking with Peeblets here who probably have been told the revised history rather than the truth. It's not their fault they are ignorant of the truth. If is however their fault for allowing themselves to be so deceived when so much evidence is readily available within arms reach.

      As they've still Peeblets, I guess we should tolerate some of their rash and unsubstantiated burblings?

    6. Yes, indeed, I've often said so; but just to refer to the effluent matter again; of course, the detached house is the structure that usually ensures non-contamination, but in the case of flats, terraced houses, and the like, it is not so certain. To live in such a dwelling can be effluently challenging; a state of affairs not experienced by the affluent.


  3. These are, as I've said before, vile people who must not be given the benefit of any doubt!

  4. MP is right Laurie - you need to get right and see the brethren for the nice people they really are. I am a bit puzzled that my followers keep banging on about Christ and the gospel - and even handing out Bibles. I gave all that way in the sixties, and took over from all that Paul nonsense. Don't let any of this garbage distract you Laurie - they don't really mean it. Just grab a case of Scotch and a married man's naked wife, get under a sheet and work it out from there. Ah, this great man that I am! And part of the unbroken line! Hallelujah! Hic!

  5. I can remember during the previous Charity Commission Matter that having no noticeboards was a principle as we had been taught that "we are the noticeboards". Now Garth Christie tells the PASC that it is a matter of principle, but is happy to erect noticeboards (although vague and uninviting). I wonder what the principle is that he refers to. I think that their principle is to gain as much money as possible for themselves. They natually deny this kind of suggestion and claim they have virtually no poverty qnd are not a burden on the taxpayer. Yet the UK EB have scores of charities channeling millions of pounds, many of them foe "relief of poverty among the brethren" and "gifting to the necessitous". So they probably getting back through charities more than most people pay in tax. From what I can see, they channel more than £10,000.00 per head through their charities (about £50,000.00 per household. There is plenty of evidence that they try hard to gain wealth - and a lot of evidence that they are heavily sponsored by the tax payer. Us Egyptians are being spoilt rotten.

    1. The trustees of a meeting room also said in a planning application that starting the meeting at 6 a.m. was an essential matter of principle. Previously, starting it at 9 a.m. was also a frequently repeated matter of principle, because that was the time Jesus was crucified in the Synoptic Gospels. Trumped-up principles come and go to suit the current whim of a leader; genuine principles do not.

  6. Nothing in my bible about fascinators either!

  7. "the meeting at 6.00am was an essential matter of principle"
    The breaking of Bread was changed from 9 am to 6 am because JTjr had to catch a flight home. (He was not privileged to have a private plane in the late 1960s!). This is expediency rather than principle? The Exclusive Brethren do not know what
    telling the truth is any more.

  8. I was asked yesterday if I knew whether the PBCC in England has set up a working party to consider how to implement the changes they're required to make in order to comply with the variation of their trust deed.

    I replied that I haven't yet heard that Garth Christie or Bruce Hazell, or anyone else, has started this work.

    Talking about it to friends yesterday evening, I found myself saying that somehow the situation vis à vis Exclusive Brethren people seems almost worse than before the Charity Commission's 55-page document was issued. (It's hard when Brethren people continue to behave with indifference and dishonesty after they have so publicly committed themselves to a better way of behaving.)

    A personal plea - I'm sure it would help the English leaders of the PBCC to include some women in any group they might establish to consider the changes they must make.

    1. Oink! Oink!
      Did you see that pig fly fast?


    2. Moo we didn't. Pull the udder one.
      Do cows fly?

  9. Definition of a cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

  10. Joan, You are living in a fantasy land.
    The document ink is barely dry, so we should not be making assumptions anyway.
    Worse than before? And just how did you come to such a conclusion?
    They will be running their own affairs as usual.

    Glass of Port anyone?

    1. Funny old ink you're using Glass of Port anyone, if it takes 8 weeks to dry. On probation for 52 weeks, 15% of that already gone, the PBCC need to start informing the rank and file of what they have been forced to agreed to a bit sharpish.

      Can you imagine taking 8 weeks in the PBCC to conform to the latest directive? You'd be out on your heels. Or can you have a TV these days as long as it's only for a couple of months? That'll be great for the football enthusiasts with the World Cup finals looming!

      Maybe JT Jnr got away with bedding other people's wives as long as he didn't spend the whole 8 weeks committing adultery?

  11. Let Us Reason Ministries on recognizing a cult:

    Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them. Has someone replaced your own choices in life.

    Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples

    Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ.

    If you want to leave are you being told their is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell.

    Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard

    Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple. Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies.

    Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up. Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing.

    Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church.

    Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous

    Do they call those who leave fall away’s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas.

    Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection.

    Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities. If not you're spirituality and dedication are questioned.

    Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong.

    Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise. Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right. true disciples did not question Jesus.

    The shoe fits and it's just the people that don't recognize that it's their shoe.

    I must say though - I hate the choices that the HEB.PBCC have made, like breaking up families, keeping children from their parents, etc. but there are many good people stuck in there that don't realize that their choices are wrong or that they have options.

    MP, LJO and others - you have choices - you don't have to continue to be a part of a cult and when you make the choice to leave the cult, you have people here that will assist you. Most of us have been brainwashed at one time or another and have managed to overcome our past. As all of you love to say - it's not too late - make the right choice today.

    1. Reasoning - Schools of opinion - Contention.

      These do not profit or enlighten, rather how great the darkness that now fills the minds of such treacherous people who once were amongst brethren. They have gone away backward.
      See- Demas forsook Paul, having loved the present age. Love not the world, nor the things of the world.
      Either we go forwards or backwards. No grey area of the truth.
      Rev, Jill, Ian and Co knew the truth, but have gone away sad at the word and into a great darkness. Very very sad indeed to see these persons in such hell-like conditions. Their deceitful activities show the devil is intent on robbing God, but he will continue to frustrate their efforts to harm.
      May the grace of God deliver us or anyone else of going the same way.
      Their feet run to destruction. Want to be like them?

      Leonardo J Octavianus

      Paul spoke against this kind of thing. These things are the mind of man and not of God. His ways are not our ways etc.

    2. I am glad that at least you left Joan out of your list of deceitful, treacherous, sad agents of the Devil whose minds are filled with darkness, their feet running to destruction in reverse gear in hell-like conditions. If you like this kind of imagery and language, I recommend Dante’s Inferno. Dante does it extremely well. Some bits of Milton’s Paradise Lost are just as good.

      I particularly like the section where he depicts the beauty of the age of innocence, and then the resounding drama of the section where Lucifer and his hellish hordes are thrown out of Heaven.
      Him the Almighty Power
      Hurled headlong flaming from the Ethereal Sky
      With hideous ruin and combustion down
      To bottomless perdition,

      And serve him jolly well right too! I like Milton’s account of the fall since it is not tainted by mountains of man-made dogma, and it is obvious that the characters and events are meant to be symbolic.

      Sorry, but I digress. Your colourful language reminded me of some wonderful poetry.

      But you have digressed too. Your post was a reply to Anonymous of 3 March 2014 13:23, but you have not commented on his main point, that the Hales Brethren system fits nearly all the classic characteristics of what have come to be known as cults (in the sociological sense). If you were to arrange religious organizations in the order of cultishness as measured by how well they match these characteristics, the Hales Brethren would come pretty near the top of the list, preceded only by the Church of Scientology, the Children of God, the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, the Moonies and a few others.

    3. LJO: You say "Rev, Jill, Ian and Co knew the truth, but have gone away sad at the word and into a great darkness"

      1) Why do you think the light is with the Exclusive Brethren?

      2) Do you think there is light in the Christian churches outside of the EB?
      3) How do you reply to people like me who have never been EB, but believe the EB to be far from the truth of the gospel?
      4) How do you respond to the listed similarities between the EB and cults?

    4. Leonardo J Octavianus

      You say "No grey area of the truth"

      Do you belive in The Bible?

      Vic R Paul

    5. Sorry, should read
      Do you believe in The Bible?

    6. Sorry, should read
      Do you belive in The Bible?

      Vic R Paul

    7. I did not post 7 March 2014 03:05

      The question to Leonardo J Octavianus is
      Do you believe in The Bible?

      Vic R Paul

    8. I did not post 7 March 2014 16:41

      The question to Leonardo J Octavianus is
      Do you belive in The Bible?

      Vic R Paul

    9. Leonardo J Octavianus
      Why have you not answered the question?

      Vic R Paul

    10. Somebody, namely
      Anonymous 7 March 2014 03:05 &
      Anonymous 10 March 2014 08:39
      is making a mockery of The Bible, probably an EB member
      A very serious position to be in

  12. Maybe the granny would be a bit happier if she married Rev.? What a fine pair they would make.The devil would be put out of business by such a lovely couple.

    Frank Lee

    1. Mr Frank Lee,
      Thank you for that very pleasant Christian comment !.

      On a different note, I’d like to examine your comments from a different blog post, obliquely trying to link Billy Graham with the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren !

      “Billy Graham acknowledged this capacity when he famously said - "The brethren are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use"”..who recognised the brethren's uniqueness and authority. He had his own measure, yet he clearly saw something special about the brethren. He didn't understand it, but he did not despise them, I know the brethren have a great regard for that man”

      Mr Frank Lee,
      Please can you provide in context quotes & evidence, if it exists, to support your comments ?

      EB members didn’t go to Mr G’s evangelistic rallies due to the threat of being Withdrawn From. The reality is told by an ex member in 2006 - “My wife and I left the Exclusive Brethren in the mid 60's when our families were separated for going to hear Billy Graham” !. EB denigrated those saved at Mr G’s rallies as “not full believers”, “only superficial”, “no depth to their conversions” !. The rallies were multi denominational & Mr G was a clergyman, both aspects rejected by EB. From books & documents I’ve seen, Mr G’s rallies only had contact with Open Brethren, who EB leader J Taylor called ‘the dirtiest ditch in Christendom’ !.

      Mr Lee, could you and your like minded put into action the supposed “great regard for that man” ? could you eat or drink with him? or fellowship, worship and sit at the Lords Table with him ? PBCC / EB don’t allow any of that, or am I wrong ?

      How can a supposed Christian really have “great regard” for another persons Christian faith, if, that same supposed Christian refuses to eat, drink, fellowship, worship or sit at the Lords Table with the other ! ?

      Mr Frank Lee, regarding the comment "The brethren are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use”. Please can you provide a full in context quote, if it exists, as it’s a negative quote, NOT a positive at all !

      Christians are to be “salt and light”, to “go into the nations”, to “love thy neighour”, to “help the widowed, fatherless and oppressed” these are all commands to be done here on earth !. As Billy Graham himself says in this article -

      “Can One Be So Heavenly Minded That You're No Earthly Good?” - Oct 7, 2011 By Billy Graham, Tribune Media Services

      Q: Do you think the old quip is true, that some Christians are so heavenly-minded that they aren't any earthly good? I've met some who are like this, but I guess I shouldn't generalize and say it's true of all Christians, should I? -- T.N.

      A: No, you shouldn't -- because by and large it's not. Yes, you may have met a few people you think are like this -- but it isn't true of those sincerely seeking to follow in Jesus' footsteps. In fact, the more seriously we take heaven, the more seriously we'll take our responsibilities on earth.

      Why is this? One reason is because life is short; none of us knows how long we have to live. We need to live each day as if it were our last -- for some day it will be. If you are ever going to live for Christ, it should be now. Every day is a gift from God, and it isn't to be wasted or spent in selfish indulgence, but to be lived for Him. Jesus said, "As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work" (John 9:4).

      Jesus doesn't call us to escape from this world and its problems, but to confront them with His power and love. Just before His arrest Jesus prayed for His disciples, not asking God to remove them from the world but to be with them in its midst. He said, "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world.... As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world" (John 17:15, 18).

      Make sure of your commitment to Christ -- and then ask Him to help you serve Him faithfully every day.

      End of Extract

    2. There is a "granny" who contributes drooling comments on the PBCC Ltd tangled website of deceit. It might be Frank Lee, of course. In this event, I would not advise matrimony, nor even a civil partnership; this might disintegrate if Frank's belligerent comments are any guide to his likely behaviour.

    3. Aha but I am not that 'granny' but I have been called 'granny' by the HEB - in a pejorative way.

    4. As for me, I’m not available, as I’m already happily married

      As for the personal attacks on Jill & others, that’s par for the course sadly. When members of Exclusive Brethrenism can not get everything their own way and find persons who are prepared to expose EB deceit, intimidation, misinformation and double dealing, or find persons who point out EB harmful false teaching, or find persons who compare EB practices to Gods Word in the Bible, or find persons who air the dirty washing of EBism in public, exposing their harm and detriment, then, Exclusive Brethren snipe back with extreme nasty personal attack. It’s been the same for many decades, but became more nasty and public since the 2012 Charity Commission case. I have copies and screen shots of some of them as evidence.

      Comparing those who speak out against the harm & detriment of Exclusive Brethrenism to 'devils' and ''the main activity against Christianity at this point in time' just serves to illustrate how frighteningly deluded and brainwashed some members of EBism really are. I genuinely feel for them and pray they may be released from such cultish bondage to find real Christianity in a real Christain Church

    5. Dear Bro Rev - I have never been disrespectful to you, have I? I have tried to answer your comments.

      I will just mention that many of the more savage posts have to my eye clearly been written by people casting themselves as Brethren in order to spice it up. They give themselves away as spoofs to me - I guess their aim is to make the blog more compelling and generate views & reads.

  13. The night indeed is coming and the deepening darkness of Satanic forces gather hither over the land. However, the light of Christ grows ever brighter in the place where true believers gather in unity of mind and spirit. The bridegroom will soon come and the doors will shut out those who rejected and despised the appeal of the glad tidings. Today if you hear his voice, harden not your heart.

    Mulberry, Cherry Brandy or Port anyone?

    1. The good news is that if you end up in Hell you won't be able to get near the fire for HEB members

  14. Rev, Delighted as always to have your contributions.
    I do enthusiastically thank you for your wholesome and meandering epistles.
    Every paragraph so beautifully planted-out with Mulberry bushes.
    Do you have anything else to add?


  15. When I read the nasty spiteful and ill educated comments put on this blog. It is clear to me that they are not merely unchristian but anti Christian or to put it another way " the anti christ There is no point in trying to reason with these people they are beyond reason and, possibly, beyond redemption.

  16. Sticky Teflon...Does your dad know you get on this site? You should not be corresponding with the world. I will be having a word about this...

    Mr Crusty

  17. Really miss the Port at the supper. When I was about 6, my mum used to get a bit frantic when I slurped too heavily on the cup as it was passed around.


  18. Following challenging posts by Anon 3 March 2014 13:23 detailing info from “Let Us Reason Ministries” re Cultish characteristics and Anon's post at 3 March 2014 13:28, here are some extracts on the same subject by Pastor Mike Campagna from “A Heart For God Ministries”

    I have added a brief answer to each point raised, to give our PBCC / EB friends a point of reference to their own doctrines, rules & practices.

    Abused By Church? - 8 Questions to Ask

    Question 1 Is Jesus Christ the center of this thing or is some other charismatic personality?

    Answer – Jesus is spoken of BUT always in the context of having Salvation, The Light, Christianity, and therefore Jesus, WITHIN the walls of the PBCC / EB. The edicts, & ministry of current universal leader Bruce Hales and historical leaders like JTaylor, are followed even if it contradicts Scripture. Leaders are called “these great men”, “fathers of the recovery”, “men of God”, “minister of the Lord in the recovery”, “elect vessel”, “our Paul”, “our beloved”. Group has no locally appointed, accountable elders, so cult of personality reigns in local meetings

    Question 2 Is another book, writing or revelation used as a basis of doctrine apart from or alongside the Bible?

    Answer – Yes, the published transcribed words of universal leaders and “these great men” must be read and obeyed. This ministry forms the basis of the PBCC / EB, without it the group would fall apart, as many of its core doctrines are false teachings not found in the Bible. (eg no eating, drinking, fellowship, worship, communion with any other Christian in any other Christian Church !)

    Question 3 Is Scripture manipulated and/or ignored to the convenience of those in charge?

    Answer – Yes, Gods Word in the Bible has to be twisted, taken out of context, contradicted, ignored, or manipulated, to provide flimsy justification for the many false teachings of the PBCC / EB. (eg giving babes in arms communion with no profession of faith, or dividing families, or separating from the Body of Christ !)

    Question 4 Is it okay for you to leave/quit or is control exerted to force you to stay?

    Answer – No it is not ok to leave, as only WITHIN the walls of the PBCC / EB can persons have The Light and Salvation. Control is exerted to force persons to stay because if persons leave to go to another Christian Church they are Withdrawn From, Cut Off , Separated from family, no longer fit to have Christian fellowship with or eat or drink with !

    Question 5 Do you feel like you can’t have a life outside of church and/or the leadership gets upset if you do?

    Answer – No you can’t have a life outside of PBCC / EB as members must abide by all extrabiblical Separation edicts & other rules issued by “these great men”, under threat of being Withdrawn From

    Question 6 Do you feel like levels of holiness are being required while the leadership is lax and goes easy on themselves?

    Answer – Yes, see example of James Taylor Junior in 1970 found in bed with another mans wife, or the flouting of separation rules by key ministering brothers aiming to dupe and mislead those in authority if it achieves monetary gain or special allowances (eg UK Parliamentary Westminster Terrace Party in 2012)

    Question 7 Do you feel like guilt trips are being used to gain unreasonable amounts of attendance and service and it’s based on a workaholic mindset held by the people in charge?

    Answer – Yes, members of PBCC / EB must justify why they miss a meeting as they are the only place to get apparent spiritual food. There is also a meeting every day.

    Question 8 Do you feel like you have no voice, your personal input is not welcome and to ask any contrary questions is unacceptable?

    Answer – Absolutely. PBCC / EB members must keep their heads down and obey, as doctrines, practices are not supposed to be questioned or debated. Any debate contrary to group thinking is shut down as “natural reasoning”, “contentious”, “independent”.

    1. Mulberry Wine anyone?
      Rev has a Mulberry wine party in the vicarage garden next Sunday - All cloven hoof members of his flock most welcome.

      Justin Case

    2. Well, Justin Case, you do realise your snide remarks do not help your position. Do you also realise that there is no evidence, bar the suggestion of his nom de plume that Brother Rev is indeed a Reverend? If he is, I somehow don't think he'll be a vicar. What a waste of your creative abilities!

  19. It's a shame that the PBCC don't put as much effort into their 'open air' street preachings as they try and do in Laurie's blog. You always know when you're getting near a raw PBBC nerve, when they start to squeal, call people rude names and tell us we are going to hell. Did anyone ever witness Jesus saying anything like that even when he had a right to? No, he even replaced someone's ear. True grace is shown by true Christians.

    1. My dear Anon - if you read the posts above, several have declared that the Brethren are going to hell. maybe you hadn't read those?

    2. To be fair, Robert, they have been sorely tried by the rants of the PBCC Ltd regulars. I am sure a scrutiny of these blogs will show some decent, informed (whether you agree, or not) comment from the likes of Joan, Rev, Ian and others; this is then rent asunder by the vitriolic postings of several Justins, Frank Lee and Tom Cobley et al; not forgetting, of course, the one and only Mr O, who, it is to be hoped, has now gone away on his business trip (no offence implied).


  20. My dear Robert - it is not for us mere earthlings to surmise who will or will not be going to hell. I thought that is what Judgement Day will be for?

    1. No, I think it would be fair to say that the EB generally have prided themselves on being very clear as to who is going where (agreers to heaven; those who disagree with them to hell) for quite a few decades. I was born in the EB in the late 60s, and there were pronouncements on this subject left right & centre all through my childhood. And I don't think it was a recent practice even then. 'Knowing' the eternal destination of others is just a wee perk of being in God's Chosen Position dontcha know.

  21. I escaped from Hell when I left the brethren!


  22. Interesting comment Ricardo - though unlikely to be believed by the HEB who think we are all bitter and twisted and certainly going to hell. They do not hear us say - we are happy!

  23. I was the author of the original post that Laurie has pasted here - to good effect by the looks. And the pertinent line in it foe the likes of this Octavious fellow and his cohorts - is 'like a lifelong liar- they cannot recognise truth anymore." I don't make false claims about the EB- they are all fact. Things that happened to me or people I know. I know for a fact that Hales ate and drank with people outside of the Brethren - despite that being a 'withdrawing from' issue for 50 years. I don't make stuff up- I'm very careful to know fact - from fiction. And I know that they do all these carpark charades to engender public support - when they don't let the public into their churches like normal churches and I know that they treated their own kids appallingly - when it suited them. I am one of those. Where the hell was all their concern when a brother was molesting kids when I was growing up - and where was all their concern when they threw teenagers out (aged 18) with no money and no support? Where were your bloody sandwich brigades in those days? They are a dishonest, dysfunctional and deluded people - who refuse to be honest or to recognise truth. And until they do - they don't have any argument at all.

  24. It is very eye-opening to read all this, when I left I was only 17, and already had clinical depression, having to take meds, now im 27. Im glad I escaped BUT, the pain is still there, what I was put through by the priests and being shut away from family, really believing I would go to hell but not wanting to go back, it might take a long time to really believe in myself and be truly happy. I truly resent the brethren cult for what it did to me and many others. Its sick and I hope the world finds out what pigs they are

  25. He/she is right!!!!!!!!!! They destroy people's lives. Mr. Bruce Hales needs to compensate all those who could have been more successful in life had they pursued tertiary education to the highest degree. It is just NOT fair that the rules have now changed and brethren can now pursue higher education. Somebody needs to talk to me!!! Justice must be served. I can still hear them appealing to me to quit attending a certain type of college. When I refused my family was shut-up. Now post grad studies are o.k.? Ouch that hurts.

    1. Well, it is better that they have changed a little than not to have changed at all. But the HEB system still has many changes to undergo before I would think of it as a respectable Christian church.

      Until it allows or encourages the advanced study of any of the arts, sciences and humanities it will still be seen as abusive, and for as long as its rules demand slavish, unconditional obedience to their leader and his every whim, it will still have cult status. As long as it denounces people and practises extreme separation from them merely because they have divergent opinions, it will still be guilty of extreme sectarianism. So long as it promotes the values and behavior of the last 50 years, it will still be seen as falling short of the moral standards that civilized society expects.

      But it could change. It changed from a church to an abusive cult within barely 10 years, so it would not necessarily take very long to change back.