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Wednesday, 19 March 2014

Love thy neighbour as thyself.......

A recent post on the PBCC website;  https://www.theplymouthbrethren.org/community/protection-of-the-jews-in-france-by-the-pbcc-during-nazi-occupation-part-14/ so why for the last 60+ years have the Hales exclusive brethren who had to rebrand as the PBCC treated neighbours and indeed family members like lepers?

I for one haven't seen my own sister for over 20 years! My parents haven't seen their eldest daughters children since the 'review' (nearly 10 years ago).

Garth Christie, Peter Trevvett, Bruce Hazell, Bruce Robertson et.al. refuse to acknowledge detriment and harm caused by the cruel PBCC rule of separation that has destroyed so many families.

Surely an audit of detriment and harm caused by this cruel fundamentalist sect is long overdue?

57 comments:

  1. On 2 June 2009, I sent my Hales Exclusive Brethren friend a copy of "Lest Innocent Blood Be Shed" by Philip P Hallie. The book deals movingly with how the Protestant pastors at Le Chambon-sur-Lignon made arrangements to care for Jewish refugees during WW2. A small number of Brethren at Le Chambon were also involved in providing shelter for the refugees, and I recall one lovely young woman called Amélie who was featured in the book.

    In the letter which I wrote to accompany my gift I commented to my Exclusive Brethren friend, "Bravo Amélie!" but, sadly, my friend never acknowledged receipt of this good book so I don't know whether she read it and found it profitable. I can warmly recommend it, though, to all readers of this thread.

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  2. This is a fascinating account and I am full of admiration for those decent brethren members who supported this humanitarian effort.In those days, of course, the hosts would be able to eat with their guests and share their home with them, demonstrating biblical hospitality. Were that today, it would be unlikely that they would be able to even let people enter their house let alone join with local pastor in such a scheme. Well done to those people in an earlier time. Thank you today's EB people for reminding us of what you were before you were led astray.

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  3. It's really wonderful the PBCC have such a long history of helping those in need, including the Jews of Europe. The good work is clearly still being done and all the more evidence here to show that the cc had no valid reason to deny them charitable status. I'm sure we all can see these people are a valuable asset to our great nation. Whilst the brethren are here, the restraint on the tide of evil will be maintained. We therefore thank God for them.

    Anne Cohen's comments on the other posts are a timely reminder of the depths to which man can descend. Man's inhumanity to man as shown by the Nazis and those like them.
    In stark contrast we see Christ's humanity - A perfect sinless man who died for us, the sinful. I urge anyone who has hatred in their hearts to turn away from the path they are on and come to the Lord Jesus. A change of mind, a change of direction and a change of character by rejecting self will and accepting his perfect and holy will.

    Leonardo J Octavianus

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    1. Good Morning LJO. As I've never been in the Exclusive Brethren, you'll have to help me out here. What do you mean " Whilst the brethren are here, the restraint on the tide of evil will be maintained."? I neither see, not perceive any evidence for this.

      Surely the Exclusive Brethren in size terms are but a small dot compared with the worldwide millions of born again Christian believers? Why do you attribute them greater significance that their numbers would suggest?

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    2. Hello LJO Now you are here, in addition to answering the above, could you also please explain:

      1 How you (of all people) know the mind of God.
      2.What is it about current members of the PBCC Ltd that delight God so much.
      3 Where do other Protestant denominations, Catholics and other religions fit into the great scheme of things.
      4.How you feel about not being a member of the PBCC Ltd. Is God a bit less pleased with you, do you think?

      As Theophilus alludes, I can't find anyone who has heard of your elect PBCC Ltd. I discuss issues with MPs, lawyers, and the like and it's such a bore as I have to explain the PBCC slant and the degeneration of Christianity from ground zero!

      However, jolly well done that this mini group is having such an impact on the tide of evil, as you put it. What particular "evil" did you have in mind? Anyone who isn't a fully paid up member of the PBCC Ltd?

      The Enquirer

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    3. Just a quick correction to the last sentence of para 1 and the first sentence of para 2 of JLO's ramble. What he meant to say was "Whilst the brethren are here, the progress of the tide of evil will be maintained. [Drunkenness, vile language, abuse of women and children, dishonest dealings, covering up crimes, ripping apart of families]. We therefore can't thank God for them.

      Anne Cohen's comments on the other posts are a timely reminder of the depths to which man can descend. Man's inhumanity to man as shown by Symington and those great men like him."

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    4. Leonardo - you are just a wind up merchant. You are taking everyone for a ride. it has certainly worked a treat, stirring Rev and co up. I suggest that you have a pity on us all and go and do something harmless like watching paint dry or something. Why don't you put a sock in it before you make an even bigger fool of yourself and your cronies.

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    5. Dialogue can sometimes seem futile, but it is better than total cultural isolation. So I do not support the request by Anonymous21 March 2014 23:26 that Leonardo should “put a sock in it”.

      Obviously I disagree with most of what Leonardo says, and with how he says it, but I would not wish to exclude him or anyone else. A free and open exchange of views can be frustrating when it makes absolutely no progress towards agreement, but I think it is leading us towards a better understanding of the problem. That is at least something.

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  4. I'm delighted that the Darbyists of the day opened their lives and homes to the Jews in this place. I wonder if today's 'Plymouth Brethren Christian Church' would do the same, or would their separatist purity laws prevent them from doing so?

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  5. LJO's comment is a bit disingenuous. The simple fact is that for the last 50 years such acts of kindness as took place during the 2nd world war would not have been allowed. That is, of course, the simple reason why the CC denied Charitable status. Charitable status was then provisionally granted on the basis that the PBCC show compassion.

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  6. Leonardo J Octavianus - the account from Le Chambon is about Brethren pre-James Taylor Jnr.

    Today Hales Exclusive Brethren members are prevented from loving their neighbour as themselves because of blind obedience to James Taylor Jr's separation directives. These Brethren aren't allowed even to share a cup of tea with a neighbour, let alone sit down at the meal table with a non-Brethren family or invite someone from a different faith to stay in their homes.

    While BDH remains their leader Brethren will never be free to love their neighbour as themselves.

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  7. I wonder if the other communities involved in this heroism feel the need to constantly regurgitate there events? On my travels though France I have seen memorials in many towns to the unpublicised heroes of the resistance. I wonder if Amélie, or her descendants, continued in the Exclusive Brethren (Taylor - Hales) movement?

    Fast forwards these events to post 1959; the Taylor Exclusives are not likely to have been involved because of the policy of separation; you could not have "contaminated" folk in the household. Fast forward to 2012, and the launch of the PBCC Ltd, the Jewish people would have been fed pies and ham sandwiches whilst en route to another destination.

    It demeans these former, great, humanitarian acts when they are regurgitated by the PBCC Ltd as fodder for publicity, at the heart of which is the maintenance of public funds.

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  8. Actually you have got that very wrong - 09:40 and 09:47.
    Some of what you say is kind of understandable perhaps from a natural viewpoint or angle, but as one actually analyses the whole point and moral purpose of separation, things start to look very different.
    I suggest you read JND's booklet - Separation from Evil - God's principle of Unity.

    "Not having a cup of tea" really misses the point. It's a question of being able to live free from everything else which would follow-on from that and influence people away from the purity and simplicity of the Christ.
    For example - 50 years ago, there was almost no TV, no violent movies or violent video games or on-line pornography. The world today in a sense is no better or worse than in Roman times or the Dark ages, but it's just that the nature of evil has partly changed it's form. When such changes come, the true believer has been sensitive to what God would have him or her to do. Today's often subtle evil is no less dangerous to the spiritual life of the true believer and can lead to complete chaos and loss of morality.
    Take a look at UK and US society today and see just how many children are born out of wedlock. Just see how broken and violent the streets have become after closing time of public houses. Compare that to the standards of the brethren and one falls silent. We may not like or agree with some aspects of their lives, but I think there is far more to be gained by focusing on the positive aspects.

    Just pause for a moment and see the hatred of authority, chaos and general decline out in the world today. It soon becomes very clear the PBCC and other faith groups no only have a right, but also a duty to their families to practise separation and ensure protection from the spirit of this world.

    The PBCC have always lived separate lives since JND's time.
    Furthermore, every situation has to be looked at carefully to see how best separation can be maintained according to conscience.

    The threat to the lives of those people, as was the case before and during WW2, presented exceptional circumstances and an emergency of life and death.

    If that was ever the case again, there is no doubt the brethren would make provision to shelter such people. It really comes down to common sense and Christianity working together. On balance, I consider the brethren to a very stable and sensible group of people who do love their neighbours and live and practise according to the 10 commandments.

    It's not intelligent to make judgements about these people before being aware of the facts. See- Christianity is not static and the brethren are moving forward to the day of Jesus Christ. The world's form of evil changes over time and thus God has always moved with the times to protect what is precious to his heart.
    He is the unchangeable God, his love and grace change not, yet Christianity is not static. If we don't follow Jesus, we go away backwards into sin and darkness.
    There are some who claim God stands still because they don't want to be adjusted by the word of God. They have gone away sad at the word and have become bitterly opposed because they are not filled with Christ, but self.
    Their hope is in this world only. Paul said (or words to the same effect) If I have hope in this life only, I am of all men most miserable"
    So then - What do I have my hope in, has to be the most important question of all time?

    Leonardo J Octavianus

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    1. Leonardo J Octavianus 19 March 2014 12:15 you said "Not having a cup of tea" really misses the point. It's a question of being able to live free from everything else which would follow-on from that and influence people away from the purity and simplicity of the Christ. "

      You seem to believe that the separation exclusive brethren follow, is a way to help eb to remain free from evil influence.

      If this is correct. Please explain why J Taylor jr was influenced by evil that caused him to call people bums and bastards ,and much more , within a church meeting. Please explain why all types of sins were disclosed within eb church meetings. Even a number of instances of adultery.

      I doubt you can provide a good answer to this . You may try and deny it , or decide to disregard the question.

      But most worldly people can still see right through your flawed thinking. Most. worldly people understand that evil cannot be shut out by confining people within cults.

      But sadly, people who live within cults cannot begin to comprehend this.




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    2. On current form, he will disregard the question...

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  9. It is good to know that during the war members of the brethren acted with human compassion. How would the brethren behave today if one of their members felt the need to leave the PBCC because they found it oppressive? With the same compassion? Or would this person have to leave secretly and keep hidden for a time?

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  10. The tide of evil has been on the ebb for most of human history, both modern and ancient. The picture of a rising tide of evil as painted by LJO and others helps to sell newspapers as well as cult allegiance, but it is a very false picture. There are admittedly a few evils that have become more prevalent, and some that fluctuate from time to time, but most of the gravest evils such as war, violence, theft, rape, murder, poverty, disease, famine, ignorance and religious hatred have been in steady decline for the whole of my lifetime and that of my parents and grandparents.

    One of the few places where you will find a rising tide of evil is in religious cults. The number of these in existence has increased steeply, and some of them that were once relatively harmless have become progressively more aggressive, deceitful, unscrupulous and exploitative. I know. I have watched it happen.

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  11. Now Mr Octavianus is disingenuous to the point of being untruthful. He is ignoring some well known and basic facts. Since when does someone - a close relative perhaps - who is not a fornicator, liar, abuser or murderer so evil that a cup of tea cannot be shared? He also destroys his own argument. On the one hand he claims that PBCC people have always been both separate and doers of good deeds. He then says the situation in WW2 was exceptional. Perhaps the latter statement is correct. Only a few short years later the PBCC people cut off every non-member relative absolutely. They had no regard as to whether that person was a pornographer or simply a Christian who attended a different church. Perhaps we might have this discussion on the PBCC's own blog? And if not, why not?

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  12. L J O Thank you for your thoughtful contribution - It's a pity a few don't value it.

    Makes really wonderful reading and it's a real comfort to know the PBCC in France did try to save as many lives as possible in those terrible times.
    We know there is more persecution yet to come for people of faith, but as with those who suffered in past centuries, there will be the strength from almighty God to bear it.

    Anne Cohen

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  13. Dear Mr O ......It is a pity that you have so much time on your hands to write yet another lengthy piece, yet refuse to answer any questions that are put to you. Is this because you insist on remaining in control of the agenda? I am pleased to see that you are acknowledging that there are other faith groups, at last, and I hope God is equally delighted with these people as he is with the PBCC Ltd (according to you).

    I do think you are a little disingenuous in surmising what the PBCC would, or would not do, in times of emergency, life or death. Can you please explain why children have been uniformed when a parent was dying? What happened to the young people the PBCC tossed out onto the street?.

    No, Mr O, the Exclusive Brethren of all those years ago are long gone, please do not continue to spin that modern times have necessitated the stance of the current PBCC, or else we might have to call your Mr Trevvett!

    You seem to have a knowledge of violent video games, and on-line porn, and so on. What a dark world you inhabit! Do you know that such things do not enter the lives of millions of folk, who manage to remain uncontaminated, even though not members of the PBCC Ltd? It's sad to reflect that now the PBCC have embraced modern technology, their young folk will find ways to access this material.

    Incidentally, the clips I have seen of young PBCC members in Australia, behaving in a rather thuggish manner, and using the most offensive language, is hardly proof that the medicine is working; rather the reverse, because no young folk, known to me, would behave in such a way.

    Now, if you excuse me, I must check to see if any evil is stalking the village where I live, even though the PBCC Ltd do not have a presence here, as a deterrent, so I must take care!



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    1. Penultimate para. l 2....would NOT behave....

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    2. Correct first time around!.."no....would"

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  14. Hello LJO. You didn't answer my questions, but if I may I'll comment on the above. To me your reply is like the classical parsons egg, good in parts.

    The church is indeed called to be salt and light in the community. I will not comment on the liberal church, but rather on the Evangelical church which takes this calling seriously and in faith, lives separated from evil. Not from evil people but from evil activities. Those not living according to this principle are the ones Jesus taught us to go out and be salt and light amongst. I think the Exclusive Brethren's misinterpretation severely hampers this calling.

    It is a gross error to think the Exclusive Brethren are the only ones seeking to be separate from evil. All practicing Christians do this. There are millions of us, every day, making free choices to live by faith and to shun evil.

    Galatians and Romans clearly teach us that we're under grace, not law, and that everything that doesn't proceed out of faith is sin. But all I see of the Exclusive Brethren is laws, laws and more laws. I don’t see grace or the individual faith that calls out to God, Abba Father. Does that mean the EB are sinning all the time instead of living out of faith? Does that make them the bulwark against sin and evil or part of the problem? I leave you to read your Bible and prayerfully decide.

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    1. Hi LJO
      I note that a number of so far unanswered questions have been put to you so I hesitated before adding to their number but your reference to the impact that alcohol has on people's lives is somewhat hypocritical.
      EB may not exit public houses in a drunken state but their over indulgence in alcohol is sad to say notorious.
      A Christian friend of mine was horrified to observe a member of the EB leaving a Supermarket with a trolley filled with alcohol. Your previous leader James Taylor Junior's false teaching and evil behaviour did much damage to the credibility of the EB as a christian denomination. His over indulgence in alcohol is indisputable so it ill becomes someone supporting the EB to criticise others for unseemly behaviour whilst under the influence of alcohol
      .

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  15. Good afternoon LJO!

    Jesus looked for faith in those he met and he was glad when he found it in the most unexpected people and places.

    The PBCC is signing up to a Variation of Deed in which they say they will deal with all people "openly, honestly and fairly".

    In your view, are the Brethren therefore open to the possibility that eating and drinking with non-Brethren people could give them an experience of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? (Galatians 5:22)

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    1. Joan - Can I answer your question with a question?
      Do you already know the answer?

      Robin Lockers

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    2. Robin - thanks for your comment. Please excuse me. I'm afraid that, though retired, I'm still a teacher at heart, and a good teacher will always ask questions to help 'students' think for themselves. Ignore what I write if it's not helpful to you.

      I've asked Garth Christie for his evidence that I and my husband are sexually immoral or greedy people, idolaters, revilers, drunkards or robbers, but he hasn't offered it. There is none, so that isn't surprising; but the Brethren maintain that they follow the Bible in all things and I therefore expect him only to refuse to eat and drink with those in his own fellowship who've transgressed in this way, and - as the apostle Paul advised - to view that kind of shunning as a means to help a transgressing fellow believer return to her/his faithfulness to the Christian way of living (1Corinthians 5:11).

      Leonardo J Octavianus wrote about the "follow-on" to sharing food or drink with a non-Brethren person. I hadn't heard that before. Have I understood rightly that it's not the cup of coffee or the shared meal that's the problem, but it's the imagined impurity of life to which they might lead? That view is probably slanderous/libellous in the overwhelming majority of cases. I posed my question because most people experience some of the fruits of the Spirit when they share a cup of tea or a meal with family members, friends and colleagues. Jesus recognised the collegiality of shared meals. He had a reputation for being sociable.

      Jesus said, "Listen and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles. ... For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile." (Matthew's Gospel 15:10-11, 19-20.)

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    3. Joan - I just think it's pointless asking such questions, if you have the answer. We are not your students.
      You have known the brethren all these years and yet you still ask as if you still don't know who they are.
      As nice as you are Joan, it just gives opportunity and a handle for evil people to attack the brethren. If you are a real Christian and do love the brethren, just stop pretending you don't know who they are.
      It's becoming slightly boring. Sorry to be blunt, but it's gone too far.

      MP


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    4. The Value of Asking Questions

      In a children’s book by Jostein Gaarder there is a story about a boy called Mika from another planet who meets a terrestrial boy called Joe and they learn about each other’s customs.

      At one point Joe gives Mika an apple to try. When Joe asks Mika if he likes it Mika bows, and then when he asks Mika what it tastes like Mika bows and bows.

      So Joe asks Mika why he is bowing and Mika bows and says, "Where I come from, we always bow when someone asks an interesting question. And the deeper the question, the deeper we bow."

      When Joe is impressed by one of Mika's answer he gave Mika the deepest bow he could and Mika said "Why did you bow?" sounding rather offended.

      "Because you gave such a clever answer to my question" Joe replied.

      "But an answer is never worth bowing for," said Mika. "Even if it sounds clever and correct, you still shouldn't bow for it. When you bow, you give way. You must never give way to an answer."

      "Why not?" asks Joe.

      "An answer is always the stretch of the road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward."

      I thought the story contained a valuable insight. It is noticeable that a great deal of Jesus’ ministry consisted of asking questions, and telling stories, then leaving the hearers to draw their own conclusions. Some of his parables finished with a question. Sometimes when asked a question he even said he didn’t know the answer. With such an example to follow, can we put much trust in people who have all the answers and expound them with great confidence?

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    5. Thank you for your note MP.

      I don't pretend. What I'm trying to do is raise matters of theological importance for the consideration of Bruce D Hales and Garth Christie. I hope they will think about helping the Brethren to discover what's involved in loving their neighbour as they love themselves. I'd like them to study the Greek of 2 Timothy 2:19 so that they can show the Brethren that they should withdraw from 'adikia' = illegal and unjust acts.

      You must be familiar with the oracles of the eighth century prophets in ancient Judah and Israel, men like Isaiah, Amos, Hosea and others. I was brought up on their teaching and the challenging words of Jesus and the apostle Paul so I'm bound to stand with those whom religious people discard and treat unjustly.

      I don't mind at all, MP, if you choose to bypass my contributions.

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    6. MP....You may not value Joan's contributions but many of us do, on this blog, even though we are not her students since she is clearly a scholarly person who writes with great experience from her position as someone with a great knowledge of the Exclusive Brethren and yet who is able to remain dispassionate. You say it is becoming boring, but her contributions, along with those of Ian, Rev, Theo and others, are illuminating and thought provoking, unlike some of the rants and outright rudeness of those who appear to be members of, or support, the PBCC position.

      I suspect she arouses your ire because she has the above qualities. It does not add to the debate to refer to "evil" people - that is most unchristian. Who do you have in mind? You might be an evil person, from another's point of view; who is anyone to judge? To say such a thing is synonymous with extreme bigotry, something that we do not detect in Joan's contributions or others, of similar merit.

      Enquirer

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  16. Thank you for your contribution Theo -

    As you haven't been a member of the PBCC previously, I'm neither empowered or even feel it is my duty to make you think differently about them.
    Your questions in a sense don't need or demand an answer, rather Jesus Christ IS the answer to the unsolved questions or confusion in your life. (If there are any?)

    I have given my witness and my witness as to the character of the PBCC is true.
    Whether you accept that or not is not my concern, but between you and your creator. I speak from unshakable conviction borne out of much personal struggle and finally finding the glorious person of Christ who opened my understanding further.

    God may have set you in a certain place of limitation and thus a certain constrained understanding of his sovereignty and government , but God himself is not limited. There is a place for everyone in their place, so to speak.
    If you sincerely ask him to reveal more as to his will for your life, he has the divine right to do so.

    Let me set the record straight - I refer to your comments in (para 3)
    Nobody has ever said they think the brethren are the only persons seeking to be separate. That came from you. If you scan my posts, you will find several comments that there are many people of faith who practise various forms or degrees of separation. So nobody has therefore asked you to agree with or conform to the degree or form of separation the PBCC currently practise.
    That is something for you to work out with God as an individual.
    It is really a matter of Christian conscience and so they also have a right to run their own affairs accordingly. To fear God rather than men.

    I sense you are searching for answers and that's not wrong. What you can't do however, is tell other Christian groups how they must worship God. The brethren do not impose themselves on other churches and thus expect to be treated with equal respect. Thank you for your understanding and trust what I have said will help dispel some of your doubts.

    Leonardo J Octavianus

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    1. Thanks LJO. I appreciate you taking time to respond, even though you neatly side step some issues. You are of course right, you have no obligation to tell me why the Exclusive Brethren do what they do. It's just common courtesy in a debate format to share such information so we can all learn together.

      I find it hard to reconcile Exclusive Brethren practice with the Bible's teachings. Both specifically and implied. The error on separation is just one such point.

      I fail to see how they claim to be fundamentalists and yet wilfully misconstrue Biblical passages to suit their own internal doctrine and agenda. Similarly I fail to see how they claim to be Evangelicals yet baptise babies and never require a personal attestation of faith at a later date. I also fail to see how their hardness of heart causes them to throw people, especially young vulnerable adults out of their family homes over petty matters.

      These observations I suggest are not because of a lack understanding due to a limitation of the place I am in, but rather non-Biblical behaviour on an organised scale which any believer can easily recognise.

      But thank you LJO you have confirmed the dire truth of the matter.

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    2. Leonardo J Octavianus 19 March 2014 16:12

      You say –
      “ As you haven't been a member of the PBCC previously, I'm neither empowered or even feel it is my duty to make you think differently about them. Your questions in a sense don't need or demand an answer, rather Jesus Christ IS the answer to the unsolved questions or confusion in your life. (If there are any?)”

      Leonardo,
      You claim to be a Christian and make liberal use of Christian Biblical terms and language in your comments, ‘Yet’ your comments as quoted above are impolite, downright rude and arrogant but also very wrong from a Christian perspective !

      The Bible teaches the following –

      1 Peter 3
      15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

      2 Timothy 4
      1.I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

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    3. Rev - Who rattled your cage?
      You quote 2 Timothy 4 Rev, but have you actually read and applied 2 Timothy 2? May I suggest you would be better off using a JND translation for accuracy.

      LJO has written some challenging things, that's quite right, but please drop the pretense about him being rude. After all the terrible things you have said about the brethren, do you have a leg to stand on? At least he is not false and defensive like you. Seems you have well and truly met your match with Robert and LJO here.
      That scripture Rev - Why do ye always resist the holy spirit?
      Do you intend to continue being opposed and bitter? Yes or No?

      As for LJO's comments , he was not responding to you, but Theo and others here in a very polite, tactful and reasonably constructive manner.

      Awaiting your reply. Make it very bitter and long please.

      John Turner




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    4. Hello John,

      Let me reply then. The problem with 2 Tim 2 is that it tells us to depart from iniquity, but not from iniquitous people, as practiced by the EB/PBCC. I’m not going to be drawn on the accuracies of different Bibles, but do compare some versions:

      2 Timothy 2:19
      Darby Translation
      19 Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of Lord withdraw from iniquity.

      New American Standard Bible
      19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

      New International Version
      19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are his,’ and, ‘Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.’

      King James Version
      19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

      A consistent translation. How do you respond to that?

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    5. Then John of course 2 Tim 2 21

      PBCC Version:
      If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work

      Darby Version:
      21 If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, [in separating himself from them], he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master, prepared for every good work.

      A bit difference if the square brackets/gloss/interpretation are left in. It reveals Darby’s own speculation, not Biblical doctrine.

      Authorised Version
      21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

      NASB
      21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

      NIV
      21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

      In short, Darby got it wrong. The EB/PBCC have magnified that error and used it as Holy Canon. Check out the Greek too. It's not there.

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    6. John Turner

      Unfortunately, your sarcasm is not very helpful. I think you will find that Theo also found LJO's comments dismissive and not very helpful. It is interesting that LJO says "challenging" things yet, according to you, Rev says "terrible" things. I have not read terrible things about the PBCC from Rev, only well argued facts, logic and truthful assertions. Perhaps PBCC commentators are unable to deal with these qualities and, therefore, become annoyed. Anyone who is critical is "opposed" or "bitter". Bitter about what? Angry, perhaps, might be the appropriate word, directed at a group who, according to the evidence, have been the cause of much detriment and harm; but have rarely acknowledge such; seeking, instead, to sanitise their history and behaviour - the main objective being the retention of public funding.

      I apologise if this is not bitter enough for your taste, or too short.

      Enquirer

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    7. John Turner,

      Isnt there a family of Turner in Chippenham, Wiltshire in the Exclusive Brethren ?, there was also Turners in Rotherham I think too ? are you related to any ?

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    8. There are Turners in Kings Lynn too.

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    9. The Norfolk Turners run Southgate Packaging- an interesting company from many perspectives!

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    10. John Turner,

      You say – “You quote 2 Timothy 4 Rev, but have you actually read and applied 2 Timothy 2?”

      John, what part of 2 Timothy 2 did you have in mind ?. As a Christian myself, yes I have read 2 timothy 2, its a powerful letter to Timothy written by the biblical apostle Paul while in prison. It teaches Christians that “only the Lord knows those who are his” not men playing at being God by condemning all others but themselves. It says ‘nothing’ about being “separate” to the rest of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all Bible following Christians saved by His Blood in every local assembly/church, irrespective of denomination. It says ‘nothing’, about refusing to eat or drink with the rest of the Body of Christ.

      You say – “May I suggest you would be better off using a JND translation for accuracy”

      John, why do you think the JND version is more accurate ?,

      John, are you aware the JND Bible currently used by PBCC / EB is itself not accurate to the JND original, as your edition has been altered and is not the same as the original ?

      John, I used the King James Version in my quotes in 20 March 2014 06:07 which the PBCC / EB also approve of. For example in the Charity Commission Report of Jan 2014 it says the following –

      Quote 1 - 24. PDT is an organisation which adheres to Christian teachings that are derived from the Old and New Testaments, using the King James version (1611) and a translation of the Bible by JN Darby.

      Quote 2. 1. The fundamental principles of our faith are those contained in Holy Scriptures known as the Holy Bible (being the King James Version or a New Translation from the original languages by JN Darby) which are comprised of the Old and New Testaments ("Holy Scripture")

      You say – “After all the terrible things you have said about the brethren, do you have a leg to stand on?”

      John, please explain what “terrible things” I am alleged to have said about the brethren ? I have consistently highlighted the false teaching of the PBCC / EB, the departure from the Word of God as demonstrated by their practices and ministry, quotes from the CC Report of Jan 2014 detailing aspects of Detriment and Harm, the double dealing and deceit especially since 2012, and requested numerous times that PBCC / EB stop dividing families and the Body of Christ. Now, these things are indeed ‘terrible’ for a supposed Christian Church to be associated with, are they not ?

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  17. Leonardo....We are all searching for answers ...to all the questions you have been asked! Just an aside, what did you think of Gal 5.1 's pertinent comment regarding the excessive consumption of alcohol. Pots and kettles spring to mind?

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    1. Theo -
      Again, please refer to my recent post - 16:12 / 19th March

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    2. Leo, that wasn't me.
      Theo

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    3. It was me!

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  18. It's all in the name - It seems our friend LJO can certainly hit the high notes (12 at least) when passing wind. And just wind it is.

    As someone who lost his family to the direct, devious & evil intervention of BDH, his blatant dishonesty, lies, threats, blackmail & more, including extensive personal interaction, communication, emails & letters - I can confirm that LJO's rants are pure BS, & outright denial of facts that are in the public domain, in many cases witnessed in Courts of Law around the world and supported by recorded, indisputable events. BDH is also a chronic coward - preferring to hide behind deputies & sudden unexplained excommunications when facts threaten to derail his 'God directed' agenda. And LJO - you weren't there - I was. Witnessed with my own eyes an ears. Experienced first hand. Lost all I had. My PRECIOUS children. All because BDH couldn't back down when he knew he was wrong, because he would lose face ... destroying an innocent man was easier. 'Good' organisation? No. Rotten right from the top.

    The PBCC LTD are a man-worshipping organisation with no Christian structure left other than enriching themselves.

    GoliathSlayer

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    1. Anon 20:21
      Have I ever said I was there? I refer to your comment on line 7 para 2.

      You said - " no Christian structure left other than enriching themselves "
      Enrichment of soul and spirit by the practise of Christianity is a good thing, not bad. Furthermore, Brethren are very honest hardworking people, so I don't agree with your unfounded charge that they are greedy.

      My suggestion is you write to the PBCC, express your feelings, have a meeting and sort out your differences. I think you will find them more than ready to help. My heart goes out to you as to the loss of your children. The way to solve this problem is to open your heart to God and be prepared to do his will. You can be assured you are not alone in your loss and heartache. Many have gone through deep waters, but are not bitter.
      I too have gone through the same thing, but have found the person of Christ enough to fill my aching heart. Take-up what I have suggested and be constructive in your approach.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    2. 'My suggestion is you write to the PBCC, express your feelings, have a meeting and sort out your differences.' Thanks LJO.

      My wife and I tried that and they cruelly ignored our letters. Much the same attitude as when were still in that sham of a religion. It's the reason we left, utter heartlessness.

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  19. Would you like to come in here, LJO, with a word, in season??

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  20. For once, I agree 100% with Brother Octavianus' writings: "In stark contrast we see Christ's humanity - A perfect sinless man who died for us, the sinful. I urge anyone who has hatred in their hearts to turn away from the path they are on and come to the Lord Jesus. A change of mind, a change of direction and a change of character by rejecting self will and accepting his perfect and holy will. " Spot on - and if everyone took this to heart and acted on it, the PBCC would number 44,000 less! Well, make that 43,999 as I can't believe the Downunder Furniture Salesman would run with it - it would be a costly (multi-million) action to take.

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  21. A few points Mr Octavianus: no-one should have to meet with church elders in order to have a relationship with his children. The very idea is both preposterous and offensive and is exactly why the CC thought that the PBCC did not operate for public benefit.

    I fear that your disingenuity is verging on contempt for truth. Quite apart from you steadfast refusal to give straight answers to questions, instead resorting to a cliche-filled quasi preaching, you destroy your own case regarding the excellent work done by the brethren in Le Chambon. You at once state that the tine was exceptional and also that the EB still do such kind acts.

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  22. When PBCC ex-doctor member Mark Craddock was being struck off the medical register in court for attempting to chemically castrate a healthy young gay man, why did he fail to mention that it was furniture salesman Bruce David Hales who advised his initial consultation in the now ex-doctors home? Was he in effect laying down his life for the testimony in covering Hales's back?

    Everybody knows it was Bruce Hales's idea, the victim has said so. Interesting to note that Hales knows about Cyprostat, anyone would think that he had had problems with gays before. Maybe one of his sons?

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    Replies
    1. Yes, Tweed Heads springs to mind - anyone else remember that? A mysterious drowning? Shame on you, brethren.

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  23. Murder, suicide, drownings, jail sentences, alcoholics, wife beaters, child molesters, bullying, funeral desecration, reckless driving, tax avoidance schemes..........all in a day's work for the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church.

    Have they found out who killed Mrs Soper in Plymouth yet?

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  24. Don't tell me. Leonardo's gone to a 3 day meeting this weekend?

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  25. No, he's at a compulsory propaganda training workshop in his local meeting room at $3,000,000 a head.

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