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Wednesday, 5 March 2014

From the Australian Mayne report



Guess Goose Gadsden wishes he was included with the 'big boys'?

Bruce Hales: the Elect Vessel of the Exclusive Brethren church and leader of over 40,000 followers worldwide, he constantly receives cash and property donations from followers. He has control over a vast network of properties and also looms over the 800 Brethren businesses spread across Australasia and the world.

Stephen Joyce: a high profile member of the Exclusive Brethren and a director of UBT, the Brethren's Universal Business System which offers such services as coaching and computers (with connection only to the internet through the Brethren's own portal). All of the UBT directors are well off and Joyce owns businesses such as Jaybro, Orange Hire and Cambridge Graphics. Stephen is also the grandson of William Leslie Joyce who owned Mastercraft Chocolates before selling it in January 1961 Lifesavers for a tidy sum. Stephen was born on December 31, 1961 and is very clever, having also worked hard for what he has. WL Joyce was killed in a 1984 car accident and his successors remain divided based on their involvement with the Brethren.


41 comments:

  1. To qualify for a mention:

    "This list tracks Australians who have accumulated net assets exceeding $10 million."

    ReplyDelete
  2. Jesus, as a first century itinerant healer and preacher in Galilee, taught his followers not to store up treasures on earth ... "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matthew's Gospel 6:19-21) He seems to have understood that the pursuit of wealth can be a corrupting experience and he had concerns about how rich religious people treated the poor and the outcast.

    The acquisition and use of money is a real problem for the church and, in my experience, most Christians pay attention to Jesus's warnings about personal wealth and how to handle it. But the church also has a responsibility to maintain services and buildings as part of its mission and so money has to be collected and managed to do that. It's not an easy task and people are often rightly critical about how money is raised and spent in various churches.

    The synagogue in Nazareth was probably quite a modest construction, but Jesus was equally familiar with the riches of the great Herodian Temple in Jerusalem. He wouldn't have been entirely surprised therefore at places like the eleventh/twelfth century Durham Cathedral in England, but he would certainly have questioned what its purpose was and whether the people who worked there were welcoming to all-comers, whatever their financial status.

    If you haven't been to Durham Cathedral, do try to visit it one day, but bear in mind that the current Dean has written that its purpose is: "To worship God, share the gospel of Jesus Christ, welcome all who come, celebrate and pass on our rich Christian heritage, and discover our place in God's creation."

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    Replies
    1. Joan excuse me, contrary to popular thought - Jesus doesn't accept anything, any old how, come as you please. Never has, never will.
      It requires certain conditions to be accepted by God and these are set out in scripture, not by a the notions of so called ordained church ministers or clergymen.
      Open house is also an invitation for people to go on exactly as they were with no change. It's really amounts to a mockery of the sufferings of Christ.
      Being a real Christian involves cost. It will cost us something if we are true to Christ because it's not cool or popular. A real church is therefore a clean place where the Lord would be free to come to.

      See - Christianity is not a nice wishy washy fudge as some would like to imagine. We cannot do as we please and we are not our own - We have been bought with a price.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    2. LJO: The word Church is the Greek 'Ekklesia' - referring to the people, and never the building. It's the people who bring Jesus into any building.

      Jesus Himself said, as recorded in Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them."

      So I don't think he was fussed about the building, but rather the people who were meeting in His name.


      Delete
    3. Leonardo J Octavianus, 5 March 2014 13:49

      I note you don’t comment on the topic of the Blog which is all about the riches of certain ones in the PBCC / EB

      I note you don’t give your comments any credence, or weight, or value, by supporting them from the Bible which is Gods Word !, why don’t you !. Please can you give your comments some support from Gods Word ?

      Members of Exclusive Brethrenism seem very adept at using specious arguments ie those which are superficially plausible, but actually wrong. Leonardo J Octavianus, please prove yourself an exception to this norm by providing full support for your statements from the Bible ?

      Delete
    4. Leonardo J Octavianus
      Have you seen my question on the previous thread on the 4th March 2014?

      Vic R Paul

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    5. Rev - may I intrude.
      I am referring to the post written by you on 5th March 2014 at 16.20.

      First - I am not answering any of your questions as they are not addressed to me.
      Second - may I take the opportunity to ask you a couple of questions?
      1 - What is wrong with having money? I am not asking about the love of money but purely "what is wrong with having money" 1 Thes 4 v 12
      2 - Are we not expected to "earn our keep" and "pay our way" - what is wrong with working hard and earning money? Col 3 v 23

      I also note that the Rich List entries are very vague and inaccurate. (please note Rev that this is a general comment and not a nasty attack on you personally)

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    6. Oh dear Rev, Riches? What riches? Who exactly? Can you please be specific? Do you have access to anyone's bank account?

      Mr O was not "Arguing" He was making a statement about how we should present ourselves before a Holy God. He spoke truth, but can you stomach the truth Rev? Nope.
      Do you have a problem with that? Yes. Do you always resist the Holy Spirit? Yes.
      God's word is in Holy scripture and it not going to be changed by spineless and corrupt persons who refuse to apply it in their own lives.
      You either accept or reject the word. Your loss if you don't.

      This is partly the "Fudge" Mr O rightly observes and draws attention to.

      MP

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    7. Robert 5 March 2014 23:36

      I'm delighted with you using the Scriptures, and in context, to frame your answer.

      This post sums things up nicely:

      Anonymous 5 March 2014 11:03

      Money itself is not the problem. It's the love of money which is the root of all sorts of evil. My experience of the HEB is that they truly love money. More so that any other acquaintances I know.

      Matthew 6:24
      No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and will love the other, or he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

      Delete
    8. Robert,
      I didn’t address my 5 March 2014 16:20 post directly to you, however, since you seem like minded with LJO in support of PBCC / EB, then you and your like minded can be asked the same questions. Please support the claims made in 5 March 2014 13:49 with evidence from Gods Word ?

      Robert, I will answer your Q’s 1 & 2 together as they essentially ask the same thing

      Q1 You say “What is wrong with having money? I am not asking about the love of money but purely "what is wrong with having money" 1 Thes 4 v 12”

      Q2 You say “Are we not expected to "earn our keep" and "pay our way" - what is wrong with working hard and earning money? Col 3 v 23”

      1 Thessalonians 4 v12
      JN Darby
      12 that ye may walk reputably towards those without, and may have need of no one.
      KJV
      12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
      ESV
      12 so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

      Colossians 3 v23
      JN Darby
      23 Whatsoever ye do, labour at it heartily, as [doing it] to the Lord, and not to men;
      KJV
      23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
      ESV
      23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men,

      Robert, aside from the fact your references aren’t specifically about money, the subject is all about context & priorities. When Pauline teaching was written, people lived basic lives in basic homes, most didn’t have the relative luxury of their Roman rulers palaces, or gluttonies of feasts, or fine clothes, or fine chariots. Yet those who lived basic lives still lacked nothing because the other things mentioned were not essential, or needed, to live life, especially in living live for God.

      For example, today, a person (Christian or not), could be living on minimum wage, not dependant on anyone else, yet have everything they need, lacking nothing, able to earn their keep and pay their way. We need money to be able to live life, pay for bills, food, clothes etc, that is obvious, not in dispute and never has been in dispute, BUT, its about priorities of what is essential for life, in particular a Christian life and not living to, or wanting to live to, excess.

      For example, the verses say nothing about living in detached houses, or having expensive cars, or being a millionaire, or earning 100k pa, or having huge warehouse meeting rooms, all of which might be nice things to some, but are they necessary ? are they really needed to live life ? or a Christian life ? What is the focus, is it on Jesus and living an ordinary life here on earth ?, or is it on amassing wealth ? or status ?, or possessions ?, or land values ?. If a person does manage to achieve above and beyond what is required to live life, then what is that wealth used for ?

      Some in the Bible were wealthy, eg Abraham, but he “gave to the Lord a tenth of all that was his” (Genesis 13:2), if wealth is used to serve and glorify God (give to the poor, the sick, missionary work, the fatherless, widows, etc (& not just within the PBCC/EB !)), then that will be blessed, however, if wealth is used for material selfish gain then Gods Word in Matthew 19 gives a clear warning

      - “21 Jesus said to him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell what thou hast and give to [the] poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. 22 But the young man, having heard the word, went away grieved, for he had large possessions. 23 And Jesus said to his disciples, Verily I say unto you, A rich man shall with difficulty enter into the kingdom of the heavens; 24 and again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to enter a needle's eye than a rich man into the kingdom of God.”

      Then we get the man who built his barns bigger in Luke 18. Looking in history I think it’s correct that the very early Plymouth Brethren gave away possessions to the poor.

      Robert, Hope that helps. Thank you for using Scripture to add Christian context to your comments

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    9. Nothing you say makes sense Ref - Does it help? No.

      It's a complete fudge and it is interesting you still don't have the moral or ethical balls to give a straight answers to any of MP's or Robert's questions.
      So why is that?
      You are also seem quite unable to counter the truth of Leonardo's statements on the other posts. The responses tend to resort to a list of fudges to avoid being honest. You have a curious habit of also making statements against the PBCC, which are not backed-up by evidence.

      John

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    10. Thanks for your reply Rev.
      I take it that you tend to view the Bible as an historical document with everything needing to be viewed from the era it was written. I personally believe the Bible to be the "living word of God" and therefore applies to my life today in the setting I live it.
      I think the bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with having money as long as it is not just used for selfish pleasure.
      In the Bible Joseph became a man of tremendous resource and Boaz is described as a mighty man of wealth. These are people who used what they had to help others.

      Can I now ask you again - Have you, Rev ever been a member of the Brethren? so far I have not seen that you have answered this question that I have asked several times.

      Delete
    11. Dear Anonymouses above,

      01:45. Do you have reading/learning difficulties? To me, Rev's replies are very easy to understand. Can we help you further to understand his replies?

      07:12 Money is not the issue. It never has been. Money is a useful too to make things happen and as a fair exchange for work given. It's the love of money so clearly exhibited in the HEB/PBCC that is the problem in my opinion. Bill Gates with his billions is giving money away to benefit mankind. The author JK Rowling is no longer a billionaire because she's given the money away to benefit humanity.

      Delete
    12. The trouble with money arises when you have to make a choice between maximizing your wealth and income or acting honestly, fairly, and generously. If you love money too much you will make the wrong decision.

      It could have been the love of money that prevented most of the Brethren from donating to non-Brethren charities for about 50 years, and paradoxically it could have been the love of money that started them doing it again in 2012. I hope I am wrong, but that is what it looks like.

      Delete
    13. It appears then, that the love of money is what prevented me at age 5 in 1962 from ever seeing my dear Granny again. How about addressing that in the only way they know how, by paying me compensation?

      Delete
    14. MP, re 6 March 2014 01:42

      I said in 5 March 2014 16:20 - “I note you don’t comment on the topic of the Blog which is all about the riches of certain ones in the PBCC / EB”

      MP says - “Oh dear Rev, Riches? What riches? Who exactly? Can you please be specific? Do you have access to anyone's bank account?”

      MP, From that response you clearly haven’t read the title of the blog, or its content, or the attachment, if you had you wouldn’t have asked the questions you have, the answers to which are all contained therein.

      MP says - “Mr O was not "Arguing" He was making a statement about….”

      MP, If you look back you will see I made a generalised comment. It also depends on the definition of “arguing” as it can mean - “debate, reasoning, contend, persuade, influence, contest, dispute, point of view, opinions”, i.e, a person who “argued their position using valid evidence during the debate”. This blog is for debate otherwise why are you and your like minded posting on this blog site ? A “Specious Argument” is also a dictionary term - “an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious”

      MP says – You say “He was making a statement about how we should present ourselves before a Holy God”

      MP, Making what you term “statements” without giving them a shred of support from Gods Word, The Bible, renders those statements rather suspect does it not ? When persons assert a statement is biblical truth but give no evidence that it actually is, then, when asked to provide such evidence, just respond with bluster & personal attack, & still no evidence, then a Christian is rightly 'Very' suspicious !. Christians are taught to test what persons say through the Word of God the Bible, if what is said can not be supported by Gods Word Christians are taught to reject what is said !! The statements maybe what PBCC / EB have been led to believe, or like to think, but neither you, nor Mr O, give any Biblical evidence from Gods Word to support the claims made !. MP, you then make other generalistic, sweeping, assumptions, such as -

      “He spoke truth, but can you stomach the truth Rev? Nope.”
      “Do you always resist the Holy Spirit? Yes”
      “God's word is in Holy scripture and it not going to be changed by spineless and corrupt persons who refuse to apply it in their own lives.”
      “You either accept or reject the word. Your loss if you don't.”

      MP, How do we know its “Truth”, from the “Holy Spirit” unless it has supporting biblical references ?, Anyone can claim to speak about Christian truths, but if what they say cant be substantiated from the Bible, then its not Christian Truth is it ?

      MP, you speak of “Gods Word” being in the “Holy Scriptures”, which is true, yet Mr O made his post at 5 March 2014 13:49 with 'No' support from Gods Word ! From a Christian perspective it is totally wrong and the height of error to assume you or Mr O, speak from “Truth”, “Gods Word” & “Holy Spirit” because there were NO references given, to support the claims made, using Gods Word. That method of automatic sycophantic asumption is how gross error creeps into a Christian Church !

      Hence why I asked Mr O, in my post of 5 March 2014 16:20 – “Please can you give your comments some support from Gods Word ?” so far that has not been done by either Mr O, or yourself, or any of your like minded !

      You say “This is partly the "Fudge" Mr O rightly observes and draws attention to”

      MP, & Mr O, the only “Fudge” in question has been created by you, as neither of you have used references, examples, etc from Gods Word to give any credence, weight, or value, to the comments made.

      Delete
    15. Robert,
      In my 6 March 2014 13:4 post, I applied both aspects, so I looked at the historical contextual view of the era the Bible was written and showed how Gods Word applies today, giving examples and references from the Bible.

      The Bible is both Historical and the Word of God

      It’s a collection of books detailing historical events in the OT & NT, the life of Jesus, the life of the Biblical Apostle Paul etc, etc,. If Christians don’t believe the Bible to be an historical record of actual real life events (such as the stoning of Stephen, the Birth of Jesus & Resurrection, the imprisonment of Paul etc), then Christians fall off a cliff, as the Bible becomes nothing more than a collection of invented stories !. The Bible describes events that actually happened in history.

      The Bible is also the Word of God, of divine inspiration, written by Him through faithful men, e.g. the Apostle Paul. The Bible speaks to us today, as it contains everything a Christian needs, to live a Christian life & everything a non believer needs, to learn about God and His son Jesus. The Bible should be a Christians sole authority in all matters of faith and practice, this is the principle of sola scriptura or “by scripture alone”. When you read God's Word, what takes place is more than just a one-way "study" from person to object. Instead, God's Word is living as God moves through the Bible to work in our lives. As Hebrews 4 v12 says “For the word of God is alive and active”, which just means the Bible can and should be applied to our lives today, yet we don’t have licence to re invent Gods Word. It contains the spoken words of Jesus, so it’s not just a book, it should be a Christians friend. Furthermore, as its the very Word of God, we should treat the Bible carefully and not abuse or manipulate it, or take it out of its context and theological order, or add to it, or be clumsy with its historical details and settings.

      Some abuse “Hebrews 2 v12” !, they think, because it says “alive and active”, it gives the right to go outside the written scope of the Bible, claiming their own opinions, rules, edicts, ministry, are new light & revelations freshly given through a “living word”, so trying to reinvent Gods Word, or add to it !.This can be a route to grave error, as it’s often the case if supposed new light & revelation are tested through the Bible, it turns out to be contrary to Gods Word. Christians must be aware of this by testing all things through His written Word. So, if a fellow Christian, or pastor, or elder, asserts something is biblical or of divine mind, if what is said can not be supported through Gods Word, Christians are taught to reject it. Scripture interprets scripture, God is not the author of confusion or contradiction.

      Robert what do you think about these matters ?

      As regards your last question,
      I would like to understand its relevance, please can you explain how its relevant, or important ?
      Do you think those who speak out against Exclusive Brethrenism are all former members ?
      Do you not think ordinary Christians who haven't been members, but who have studied the doctrines of Exclusive Brethrenism, should speak out ?

      In the meantime, I can say, yes, I have relatives on all sides of our family who are trapped by the false teaching of Exclusive Brethrenism, we speak out because we love them, and because as Christians we’re taught by Gods Word to expose and rebuke false teaching / false doctrines and because EBism is inherently unchristian !

      All Christians in the Body of Christ comprising Christians in all Christian Churches/assemblies could be called “Brethren”. In Gods Word, the term “Brethren” applies to all Christians, yet EBism has arrogated the term “Brethren” as just pertaining to themselves, but that’s not Biblical. Strictly speaking, as I am a Christian I am also a member of Christ’s Brethren, but with the Brethren name having been sullied by EBism, I prefer just Christian.

      Delete
    16. Rev - You have no link with Christ or the body of Christ,
      so you can't claim to be a member of those who love the Lord.
      Separation from evil is required and right now your ways are evil as evidenced by your posts and other activities against the brethren.

      On a soul's in Hell, nothing of Christ will be found there.
      Grace never runs out, but time does. Will you refuse the evil works in your life and choose what is good. It means repentance. God has one standard.

      John

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    17. I notice, John, that you don’t discuss the facts or arguments put forward by Rev and others. Instead of countering arguments or offering counter-evidence, you insult and belittle the people who make them. Is that because you don’t have any counter-arguments to offer, or any evidence with which to refute the statements you disagree with? Wouldn’t it be more productive to deal with the arguments that Rev and others make instead of ignoring his arguments and condemning the person?

      Facts and arguments stand or fall on their own merits, irrespective of who has made them.

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    18. John, I know you addressed your appalling post to Brother Rev, but I am hurt and offended by it too. Such a shocking way to address anyone!

      However, on the basis of Romans 12:14 “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.” I feel prompted to wholeheartedly bless you. Let me use the words of Numbers 6:

      "24 The Lord bless you and keep you;
      25 the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you;
      26 the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace."

      I also agree with Ian. If you have a valid discussion point, make it with supporting evidence. If there is no supporting evidence, maybe you'd like to consider why? Is it true, or prejudice?

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    19. Rev - why can you not answer a straight question?? I asked you if you had ever been a member of the Brethren and you give me five paragraphs in response beating around the bush to say the least. Why cant you just tell me if you personally have ever been a member of the Brethren. as you refer to them the PBCC/EB. Yes or No.
      I look forward to seeing a one word answer from you if you can't do that then I will take it that you are after all just a bag of wind.

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    20. Maybe he doesn't want to.

      What business is it of yours anyway? Why do you want to know? What benefit does it gain you?

      Delete
    21. Robert, 8 March 2014 17:01

      I would certainly like to clarify my response to your question with a simple quick answer BUT, first of all I now have to correct your deliberate attempt to spread mischief and confusion !

      I thought you had stopped trying to create confusion, misinformation and twisting what persons say, which has been evident in comments by you on other blog threads. I thought the sensible, adult, thoughtful, Christian based dialogue we have had from you in the previous few posts above were a positive step forward, but your latest post shows you’ve reverted backwards !

      You say – “why can you not answer a straight question?? I asked you if you had ever been a member of the Brethren and you give me five paragraphs in response beating around the bush to say the least”

      Robert,
      Your post at 7 March 2014 07:12 contained ‘More’ than just the ‘One’ question which you now focus on ! It contained “Two” questions, assumptions about what I believed and other comments, which were necessary to respond to.

      I responded at 7 March 2014 17:46, to your first question & correcting your assumptions re what I believed about the Bible (Historical v Word of God). It was a detailed considered reply about the Word of God over three quarters of the post (over 4 paragraphs) and which you now seem to term as “bag of wind”, “beating around the bush” !

      At the end of the same post I answered your other straight question about whether or not I had been a member of the brethren, with a straight answer, less than a quarter of the total post, consisting of “1” paragraph, preceded by 3 questions !

      Robert, your comments as quoted above are a deliberate misrepresentation and blatant attempt to discredit, cause confusion and twist what a person has said, for which you need to apologise, please do so ?

      You say – “ Why cant you just tell me if you personally have ever been a member of the Brethren. as you refer to them the PBCC/EB. Yes or No.”

      Robert, I have already answered and said “Yes”, to your question in my post of 7 March 2014 17:46. It is perhaps unfortunate that the word “and” which was supposed to be after the “Yes” in that 17:46 post, was missed out, but C'est la vie !

      If you had just asked for a simple clarification, the query could have been answered very simply and quickly. ‘But No’ you couldn’t help yourself and had to mix in the baggage of trying to cause mischief, misrepresenting and confusion, resulting in a clear attempt to discredit and belittle, which has had to be refuted and corrected, these tactics of yours have meant my reply is longer than it needed to be !

      Robert, very rarely in normal conversation do persons responded to each other with one word answers, real debate does not operate that way. Conversational debates & especially Christian Biblical debates refuting & challenging False Teachings are full of nuance, detail of information and supporting evidence. When persons then mix in deliberate tactics trying to cause misrepresentation and confusion, discussion naturally becomes longer, because those tactics have to be unpicked and refuted before debate and discussion can continue ! but maybe thats your plan, to shut down discussion ?

      Robert, please can you apologise for your misrepresentation ?

      Robert, please can you answer the questions I asked in my post of 7 March 2014 17:46 ?

      Please can you clarify why you think my post of 7 March 2014 17:46 is a “bag of wind” & "beating around the bush" when it details important biblical truths & matters regarding the Word of God ?

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    22. Please can you clarify - Do you mean beating around a Mulberry bush Rev?

      Delete
    23. Rev - Thank you for your yet again long-winded answer. you simply cannot give a simple straight answer can you!!!!!! without seeking to spread confusion and misrepresentation by asking multiple questions of your own.
      Rev - I really feel very sorry for you - and even more sorry for those poor people who have to listen to you every day - my heart goes out to them.
      Your replies are all very sad and confused. Poor man. I will pray for you that you might know real peace & joy.

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    24. Robert, it's clear to Biblical scholars why Bro-Rev's answers are long and detailed:

      Ephesians 4 tells us why:

      11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

      Clearly Bro-Rev is a teacher. He's painstakingly presenting the truth in a logical and Biblically supported reply, designed to reduce error and sin. I realise this may not be the style of teaching you are used to, as it seems the Exclusive Brethren no longer apply the Bible to their lives, but none-the-less it does explain the truth to you. This gives you a genuine chance to read it, consider it and compare it with your life practices.

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    25. Theophilus - you may think that you know Best. I respect your view but what is wrong with a simple answer to a simple question.
      I asked him if he had been a member of the Brethren, yes or no. What logical and Biblically supported reply is needed to that question??
      Rev has already indicated to me elsewhere that he is not a Reverend, so we are also grappling with someone who is deliberately misleading others by posing as having a status that he simply doesn't have.
      All very strange and puzzling - I feel very sorry for him, he is clearly confused.

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    26. Many contributors here use pseudonyms and no one reads much meaning into them. Rev, Abishag Theophilus, Octavianus and Anne Cohen are all just labels to let us match up different contributions from the same people. On the other hand, I think several contributors have deliberately and explicitly misrepresented who they really are. Most of the Hales Brethren are instantly recognisable by their habits of thought and vocabulary. There is Brethren language and non-Brethren language and hardly anything in between.

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    27. Good Evening Robert. I don't think Bro-Rev is confused. I think you're putting a wrong label on him. The Exclusive Brethren seem to be good at accusing others. Would you agree?

      I reiterate: Clearly Bro-Rev is a teacher. He's painstakingly presenting the truth in a logical and Biblically supported reply, designed to reduce error and sin. I realise this may not be the style of teaching you are used to, as it seems the Exclusive Brethren no longer apply the Bible to their lives, but none-the-less it does explain the truth to you. This gives you a genuine chance to read it, consider it and compare it with your life practices.

      Delete
  3. Money itself is not the problem. It's the love of money which is the root of all sorts of evil. My experience of the HEB is that they truly love money. More so that any other acquaintances I know.

    Matthew 6:24
    No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and will love the other, or he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

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  4. Leonardo J Octavianus says It requires certain conditions to be accepted by God and these are set out in scripture, not by a the notions of so called ordained church ministers or clergymen.

    The scripture that Leonardo J Octavianus refers to , is recorded "notions" of some early day believers

    Leonardo J Octavianus type of Christianity is a nice wishy washy fudge type of belief .











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  5. Mulberry wine and Fudge at the Vicarage anyone?

    Duncan Doughnut

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  6. How many millions of people have been saved by hearing the Word of God, possibly when least expecting it? To deny sinners a place where they could find salvation seems very close to the work of the devil. Hence I cannot agree that to enter a place of PUBLIC worship can be subject to any kind of stipulations, be it dress, hair style, adornments or someone's interpretation of 'well-disposed'.

    To discriminate otherwise clearly makes the place of public worship a private members club, which would be rateable. I do not have a problem with private members clubs, but I do have a problem subsidising a 'place of public worship' with my money, which then disallows me entry because I might have been before but now worship elsewhere.

    This appears to be a money saving scheme by the PBCC and is one of the problems associated with the PBCC accumulation of it. Just pay rates, you can do what you want then. We might not tie yellow ribbons on the locked gates then!

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    Replies
    1. TYR Practitioner7 March 2014 at 15:20

      Oh no, we'll continue tying yellow ribbons on the locked gates even then, Anonymous. Because you see, although you have a valid point about the Brethren's unscrupulous sponge re 'place of public worship' when in their hearts and general practice they really aren't, the reason we tie the ribbons is actually because we love and miss our family and friends in the Brethren. In a way, you could say that the point we're raising is more about EB separation policies I guess.

      Even private clubs aren't allowed to undermine people's human rights to the uninterfered-with practice of marriage, family, religion, education. So the yellow ribbons will continue, as long as the Brethren keep up their separatist shunning activity. Sorry.

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    2. I'm very glad to hear it and look forward to seeing more evidence of the yellow ribbons being tied. I have already done the three rooms that lie within a 100 mile radius of my home.

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  7. While we're on the subject of money, and if you live in Scotland, it may interest you that the controversial film about the apostle Paul “A Polite Bribe: An Apostle’s Final Bid,” is to be shown today, Friday 7 March, at 4 pm in the Martin Hall of New College, Edinburgh.

    There will be a discussion following the film, involving the film's director/writer/producer, Rob Orlando, and Edinburgh New Testament scholars, Dr. Matt Novenson and Dr Larry Hurtado. Admission is free.

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    1. Mea culpa - I should have written TOMORROW, Friday 7th.

      Apologies.

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  8. Congratulations on The Fat Controller clocking up more than $10m. I think this should be a sign to our young people that they should go into the furniture sales business. Clearly the Lord likes furniture. What about you Leonardo? How do you feel about a chaise lounge?

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  9. Some HEB members were very sore that appealing their case to the Charity Commission was costing a million and more.

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  10. I bet they're even more sore now they know that they've effectively lost! Whatever next? Eating with relatives? TV, so long as you only watch business programmes? We could be witnessing the final downfall of that most corrupt of regimes.

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  11. I read this in my Bible this morning. The principles of a servant King - equally applicable to any leader. I wonder if BDH has read this ever?

    Deuteronomy 17: 14-18

    14 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15 be sure to appoint over you a king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the Lord has told you, “You are not to go back that way again.” 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

    18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the Levitical priests. 19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the Lord his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20 and not consider himself better than his fellow Israelites and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

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