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Friday, 21 February 2014

The 'eating matter'

This harmful doctrine as practiced by the Hales exclusive brethren causes such kerfuffles withersoever it rears it's ugly and unChristian head, that one wonders and indeed fears for the sanity of the poor deluded, indoctrinated souls who sadly remain trapped inside the fearsome 'system'.

The public benefit conferred by this 'new religious movement' must remain questionable?




69 comments:

  1. In following the teaching of James Taylor Jnr (Exclusive Brethren leader 1959-1970), that they shouldn't eat or drink with people outside their group, the Brethren are setting aside the example of Jesus, the teaching of the apostle Paul, the conventions of hospitality in the Ancient Near East and the practice of normal good manners in the United Kingdom today.

    In September 1960 James Taylor Jnr wrote, "... it would not be the mind of the Spirit and invariably we are contaminated when we do go, for the uncleanness comes out over the table." Please note that when this was printed by the Brethren they put 'invariably' in italics, presumably for emphasis.

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    1. James Taylor Junior obviously spoke a lot of sanctimonious twaddle. Sad for a so called 'man of God' who clearly did not believe nor understand his Bible.

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    2. Following JT's decree on eating at the same table, it is well documented that , in some circumstances, tables were cut through the middle with saw in order to provide righteous and clean eating conditions. That very act sums up what the PBCC are all about to me. Splitting hairs ( and tables!) over fine details, whilst missing the whole point ( separating from adulterers etc etc).

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    3. Joan - you can go on and on about your ideas about what the PBCC should and shouldn't do. I refer to the eating matter of 1959/60.

      This turning point was established in the recovery well over 50 years ago, but if you wish, it can be moaned about for another 50. Some may have forgotten the huge changes that occurred in society around that time, so it was quite a logical move as well as a moral one.
      Please don't go down the road of contention and destruction.

      Rev / Ian and his kind are already heading well into the jaws of Hell because they mock and despise the grace of God.
      They do not have your interests at heart Joan, whereas the PBCC do.
      Some of us happen to know what drives those two's hatred towards the brethren. You cannot reason with evil and unreasonable people who are bent on the destruction of the recovery and the Christian faith.
      They will not succeed and will be held to account for every evil word that has been written. That applies to anyone. We should not lat charges against those God has redeemed and sanctified by his death.

      Turn your back on those who don't help you Joan and make a fresh commitment to the Lord. Ask him and he will give you understanding.
      Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    4. Mr Octavianus,

      There are just a couple of points in your post that I would comment on.

      I agree that there was a turning point in Exclusive Brethren history over 50 years ago, possibly the biggest turning point ever, but I would not call it a turning point in the recovery. I don’t believe the ministry of the last 50 years could be called a recovery. You can only call it recovery if something like it had existed before. It could more accurately be described as the development of a new religion.

      I wonder what you mean when you say, “Some may have forgotten the huge changes that occurred in society around that time, so it was quite a logical move as well as a moral one.”

      I agree that there were huge changes in society in all the developed countries around that time. There was a sustained fall in crime rates, especially in the incidence of rape and sexual abuse of children; there was a spreading recognition that driving under the influence of alcohol was immoral; there was a growing acceptance and respect for the moral principle of equality, particularly as affecting racial groups and women; there was a substantial move towards treating animals more humanely; there were huge advances in medical science; there were the beginnings of a move to refrain from poisoning our environment; and even sexual harassment was becoming socially unacceptable. In most of these respects, young people generally aspired to higher moral standards than their parents had done, and I think this trend is still to be seen.

      However, the connection between this civilizing progress and the edicts of Jim Taylor escapes me. I would have been only too happy if he had encouraged the same kinds of moral progress himself, either by teaching or example, but from what I remember and from what is recorded in ministry, in correspondence and in court records, he did just the opposite.

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    5. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      Just some brief comments related to certain aspects of your post to Joan,

      You say - “Rev / Ian and his kind are already heading well into the jaws of Hell because they mock and despise the grace of God”

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      Do you have any evidence for such comments, I would like to see it ? .

      You make these wild assumptive statements with no evidence to support them, I pray this is not common amongst those with whom you walk ?

      You seem very free & liberal in your use of a veneer of bible language to condemn all others, which by the way is a typical tactic of a false teacher, but its also the height of hypocrisy, when we consider the PBCC / EB practice many harmful doctrines and false teachings not found in the Bible (this is done by comparing PBCC / EB practices to the Word of God), YET, when this is pointed out to you and your like minded, you respond by condemning any who expose the falsity of the PBCC / EB position as being against God !

      If you and your like minded cant see that in this respect your theological and biblical debating position is frankly nonsensical and totally contrary to all reason and reality and bible truth, then I really feel for you and pray that the Spirit helps you.

      You say – “who are bent on the destruction of the recovery and the Christian faith”

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      You really are bringing the name of the PBCC / EB into further disrepute by making such factually inaccurate and biblically inaccurate statements.

      First of all, there is no such thing as a “recovery” dating from JND’s time onwards, that’s a cover story put out by EB leaders to justify the position of EBism, I’m sorry to burst the bubble but it’s not based on reality or biblical theology. JND did not “recover” the true church as Exclusive Brethren are led to believe, the Christian Church was alive and well long before JND, FER, and JT came along and is alive, well and thriving without Bruce Hales and the PBCC / EB today. Which of course you wouldn’t know because you separate from the rest of the Christian Church !

      Secondly, why do you equate those who speak out about the false teaching, harm and detriment in the PBCC / EB, with resultant destruction of the Christian Faith ? Do you think the PBCC / EB are the only Christians ? Do you think those who speak out and expose the PBCC / EB are not Christians ? Do you not know the Bible teaches and charges Christians to expose and rebuke false teaching ?

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    6. Leonardo J Octavianus,

      You say – “We should not lat charges against those God has redeemed and sanctified by his death”

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      You seem to conveniently forget the Bible teaches Christians to expose and rebuke false teaching. The Biblical apostle Paul’s ministry is full of warnings to local Christian Churches / Assemblies about the danger of false teaching, I thought the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren followed biblical Pauline teaching ? It is a continual process for a Christian to keep to the Word of God and not stray into false teachings

      PBCC / EB practice many forms of false teaching not found in Gods Word, just a few are summarised here –

      - Refusal of fellowship, worship or communion with any Christians outside EBism
      - Refusal to eat or drink with other Christians outside the walls of EBism
      - Refusal to eat or drink with any non member, even family, outside EBism
      - Separation from all non members, even families, even if they are Christians
      - Allowing babes in arms to take communion emblems with no confession of faith
      - Teaching that ministry of men is on the same level as scripture
      - Teaching that all other Christians outside the walls of EBism are in error
      - Teaching that an alcoholic James Taylor Junior, who was found in bed with another mans wife, is a “pure man of god” and “our beloved”
      - Dividing of family if a person leaves EBism resulting in parents, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, etc being split apart, even if they are Christians
      - Teaching that if you leave EBism you cant be a Christian
      - Teaching that outside the walls of EBism no other Christian Church follows biblical apostle Pauls ministry (when in fact the opposite is the case)
      - Teaching that EBism is the only place a Christian should be
      - Teaching that JN Darby recovered the true Christian church
      - Not allowed to marry outside the walls of EBism, even if the other partner is a Christian
      - Teaching that EBism is The Assembly (The Body, The Church)
      - Creating vast numbers of extra biblical edicts and rules, superfluous to the Word of God, unnecessary to walk a Christian life, yet critical to hold members in bondage

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      False teaching, is any perspective or statement that claims to be truthful yet contradicts what the Bible teaches. All of the above and much more besides are false teachings not found in the Bible. Much of it is either twisted interpretation or in “addition” to the Bible. In modern terms that is known as a “Gospel Plus” message,

      The Bible teaches Christians to speak out, expose and rebuke such things, see the following references – Titus 1, Acts 20:25-31, Acts 5: 29, Jude 1: 3-4, 2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 4, 2 Timothy 4, 1 Timothy 1, Matthew 7: 15, 1 John 4: 1-3, Colossians 2, Hebrews 4: 12, Hebrews 13: 9, 2 Timothy 1: 7-9, Galatians 1:8, and many more

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      Do you know the meaning of hypocrisy ? Here is a revealing examination – The PBCC / EB plead “We should not lat charges against those God has redeemed and sanctified by his death” as a cop out to try to silence those who expose their false teachings, YET, on the other hand, the PBCC / EB feel at liberty to treat the rest of the Christian Church (His Body), & Christians in those Churches who have been accepted by Christ, as all being in error, unfit to eat or drink with, unfit to have Christian fellowship with and withdraw and separate from them all !! That’s the PBCC / EB laying charges against the whole of the rest of the Christian Church !!

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  2. For the Christian faith, one of the really sad things about the “eating matter” is that it pitches Christian against Christian. It divides Christian against Christian.

    “Other Christians” are all those in the Body of Christ, in every other Christian Church outside of the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren. The PBCC / EB are taught that all other Christians outside of themselves are “in the world” !

    The “eating matter” results in supposed Christians saying to those other Christians outside the closed sectarian group of PBCC / Exclusive Brethren, no we cant eat with or drink with you !

    Whether by intention or not, this act, gives a signal to those other Christians that a) the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren are superior to all other Christians & b) those other Christians are somehow inferior and somehow unfit to eat or drink with!

    It’s quite astonishingly sectarian and the problem for the Christian faith as a whole is that this act and its results are utterly against the teaching in the Holy Bible which is Gods Word.

    Yet, the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren claim to be furthering Gods Word by distributing supposed Christian tracts and conducting supposed open air preachings, while in the background, they are practicing a very destructive anti Christian and unbiblical doctrine, which results in dividing the Body of Christ and dividing families.

    The PBCC / Exclusive Brethren certainly do not further the Christian faith, they bring harm and detriment to the Christian faith, through this “eating matter” and other false teaching.

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    1. Rev - Deep is the self made mire of natural reasoning.

      Separation has always been part and parcel of human existence since Adam's fall and not something invented in 1959/60.
      It seems you can't accept the facts about separation and what it means in your life, can you?
      Are you also going to continue to mock those God is pleased with?
      The sarcasm of your comments about the PBCC gives away your mindset and lack of intelligence. Sarcasm is the poorest form of wit!
      Facts Rev, you have a terrible record of being factual in all your posts.

      Just because you can't accept the principle of separation or have the stomach for its application, doesn't mean it is wrong practise.
      It is a matter of conscience for millions of people around the world and includes such things as race, religious conviction, wars, death etc to name a few. You often accuse the brethren of inventing it.
      That's neither factual or truthful is it?

      There should be no doubt then, it's the state of sin in the world that causes separation or distance from God.
      It means we all have to get back to the point of departure and close the distance that has come into our lives as individuals.
      Your negative thinking about the lives of the PBCC is one of error set in stone. Very tragic. See there is still grace, but has time run out for you? Soon Christ will come in glory. Will you and I be ready for him?

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    2. Mr Octavianus,

      I have carefully preserved some of your posts as examples that reflect Brethren attitudes, because any serious study that attempts to understand and explain Brethren attitudes will need to start by proving that there really are people who think and write as you do.

      I notice that in common with many Brethren teachers you have a low opinion of natural reasoning, and I would fully agree that there are limits to what natural reasoning can achieve, but all the Brethren leaders who have said things like this in their ministry have used plenty of their own reasoning, which looks every bit as natural as anyone else’s. So does yours. What is there about your reasoning that makes it superior or unnatural? The label “natural reasoning” in Brethren discourse has often just been a way to dismiss someone else’s reasoning when they don’t have any way of refuting it; a cop-out in other words.

      The other kind of cop-out that you appear to have used is the tactic of argumentum ad hominem. In other words, when you can’t discredit what someone says, you try to discredit the person who says it. So for example in that last short post (which is by no means the worst example) you accuse Rev of mocking, sarcasm, lack of intelligence and having a terrible record of being factual, but I see no evidence of this, nor do you cite any that looks convincing. In a previous post you accused him of being obnoxious, hateful against God, deceitful, misleading, not genuine, unfit for consideration, evil, and against the Cross of Christ. This is all classic argumentum ad hominem, which gives the impression that you have no valid response to Rev’s concerns. If you had a valid response, I expect you would have given it.

      The only example of inaccuracy that you allege is that Rev often accuses the Brethren of inventing separation, but does he really? Does he not just accuse them of inventing their own version of separation? It is known that separatist policies were practised by many primitive, warring, human tribes long before the Brethren movement began, and I am sure Rev would never suggest otherwise. No one would seriously think the Brethren were the first to practise separation from those outside their own tribe.

      I might also point out that Rev’s objection to the Brethren’s form of separation was largely based on scripture and the harmful effects of separation, not on his lacking the stomach for its application, as you seem to suggest. He has never implied that his lack of stomach for it is what makes it wrong in practice, nor do I think he would use such specious reasoning.

      It would be much more useful if you were to address the actual concerns that Rev has expressed or examine the statements he has made, giving your reasons for disagreeing, if you have any. Merely contradicting them without giving reasons is not much use to anyone.

      I wonder if you would clarify what you mean when you say, “It [separation] is a matter of conscience for millions of people around the world and includes such things as race, religious conviction, wars, death etc to name a few.” What exactly is the connection between racial separation and conscience?

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    3. Mr Octavianus, you said , "Soon Christ will come in glory."

      Where's your evidence?

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    4. Faith is evidence of things not seen.

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    5. Mark 13:32 - But of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels that are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

      The Bible

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    6. William Miller (1782-1849): "My principles in brief, are, that Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, cleanse, purify, and take possession of the same, with all the saints, sometime between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844."

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    7. Firstly - The Bible is the inspired word of God written by men of faith.

      Also Jesus also spoke to his disciples about the signs of the age we are living in and those signs thus show his coming is soon. The bible does not tell us which day or hour , but there is nothing to suggest it is not in these times. The signs are clear to people of faith, but if you have no faith, it is not surprising you don't want Christ to come because you're afraid he will come and light-up the darkness you hide in.

      Men have loved darkness rather than light because their works were evil.
      Repent of your sins therefore before the coming of our Lord Jesus. His grace extends to you and I today. "How oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathers her chickens beneath her wings". We have today, a day of amazing grace, but none of us know if we have tomorrow.
      God gave us the breath of life when we were born and can just as easily take our breath away in an instant. Don't despise his offer of salvation. So the evidence of his coming to us soon is there very plainly.
      All the signs speak distinctly and louder of his coming.

      Those blessed words " Soon Christ will come in glory"
      They are not my words, but words written in the hearts of those who walked with Jesus in ancient times and now on the hearts of those who are living in this age of the signs Jesus spoke of.

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    8. OOoooh, lenard, I feel that you have really converted me, with my new faith, none of what you write sounds like gobbledekook to me.
      I would love to join your large universal church, then I would have the opportunity to worship Mr Bruce Hales and send money to him.
      Are you sure that the Exclusive Brethren are going to get the highest place in heaven?
      What is involved in becoming one of those 'preists'?
      As a female do I have to wear a full scarf? (or has that been canned too?)
      How soon can I preach the Gospel of Christ to the starving congregation(spiritually starving obviously, not physically)
      Cheers,
      Miss Gullible

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    9. Dear Leonardo J Octavianus,

      You say, "those signs thus show his coming is soon."

      Please can you provide evidence. I would suggest that the 'signs' that we are to look for (wars, rumours of wars, quakes, famine) are much less in abundance now than at any during the last 1000 years. I am aware that fear-inducing cults preach that we are in the very last days, but others tend not to. Also, every single 'prophet' that has predicted the end times has got it wrong, including a few of the EB MoGs.

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    10. It helps to know some history. If we had lived in Galilee, Judaea or any of the countries that bordered and/or conducted commerce around the Mediterranean in the first century AD we’d have been aware of earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and stormy weather. Our grandparents and parents would probably have told us about the devastating Persian-Greek wars of recent centuries and if we were Jews we’d have been told of Pompey’s ominous siege of Jerusalem in 63 BC. Added to that, we’d have been brought up in the tradition of the apocalyptic teaching of the earlier Hebrew prophets and of recent Jewish literature.

      It isn’t at all surprising that the Gospel writers recorded that Jesus spoke in apocalyptic terms.

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    11. In Matthew 24 when Jesus is describing end times and signs of the times, some of his remarks seem to be specifically about Jerusalem or Judea. He refers to the sacrilegious desecration of the Temple, as well as its physical destruction, and says that those in Judea will need to flee to the mountains.

      He also says these events will take place during the lifetime of his audience. “This generation will not have passed away until all these things shall have taken place.” This has led some to the conclusion that he was referring to events in the first century, including the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army under Titus in 70 AD.

      The Exclusives exclusively follow Darby in his interpretation of the apocalyptic writings such as Matthew 24, Revelation and Daniel, but there are other equally credible approaches to interpreting these scriptures, including the so-called preterist, historicist, futurist and idealist interpretations. You can read screeds about them in hundreds of on-line sites.

      If Darby is right, and the end-times are still to come and will be immediately preceded by desecration of the Temple as described in Daniel, then we will need to wait for the Temple to be rebuilt first. Right now there ain’t no Temple to desecrate.

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    12. Ian,
      Thank you for your post of 23 February 2014 12:20, in the face of what is a sustained and deliberate attempt by members of the PBCC/EB to intimidate and silence those seeking to shine a light on their harmful practices

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      Ian has quite rightly and very ably highlighted some points and questions arising from your post addressed to me on 23 February 2014 10:51, so there is no need for me to repeat them, however, they are all valid, sensible, well reasoned (giving examples & evidence), points and questions which you should respond to

      Leonardo J Octavianus,
      There are other points and topics you raise in your post of 23 February 2014 10:51 which warrant further examination and I will respond to those in due course

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    13. Leonardo says "Firstly - The Bible is the inspired word of God written by men of faith." So why then do the Exclusive Brethren ignore the Bible and digest the nonsense of a trumped-up con-man furniture salesman instead? Oh dear, how blind can some people be! If only we could wave a magic wand and have the scales removed from their eyes.
      If only they, including Leonardo, could be freed from this farce.

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    14. Leonardo J Octavianus,
      In addition to points Ian raised with you in his post of 23 February 2014 12:20, which are still waiting for you to respond to, here are other topics worth exploring in more detail from your post of 23 February 2014 10:51

      To make easier reading I have split it into 4 short posts

      Part 1

      You say – “Separation has always been part and parcel of human existence since Adam's fall and not something invented in 1959/60”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, The blog title at the top of the page is “The 'eating matter'”. My post at 21 Feb 2014 17:31 was specific to the “eating matter” in relation to other Christians outside of PBCC / EB, not, about the general principle of separation. You appear to want to deflect attention from the “eating matter” to discuss the principle of “Separation” in more general terms, but that is not the subject of the blog post, nor of my post at 21 Feb 2014 17:31.

      The principle of “Separation” in Exclusive Brethrenism takes many forms in the way it is practiced, many are not biblical, or are overtly legalistic, or are esoteric, or at the very least hypocritical., much are just “mans ideas”. So we have for example : total ecclesiastical separation from every other Christian Church, separation from all non members (even if they are Christians), separation from certain careers, separation from theological studies, separation from non member weddings or funerals (even if they are Christians), separation from television and radio, separation by not eating or drinking with non members (even if they are Christians), etc, to name just a few of the types. “Separation” is if you like, an umbrella title, underneath that are all the different layers, types and forms of how separation is practiced by the PBCC /EB.

      Leonardo J Octavianus, many of the layers, types and forms of “Separation” practiced by PBCC / EB (some are listed above), were introduced at different times in history from the 1830’s onwards, they were certainly NOT “part and parcel of human existence since Adam's fall” !, that’s an incredibly misleading thing to suggest and is completely specious. In addition, many Levitical, Jewish and Pharisaical laws of the Old Testament (including many types and forms of “Separation”), were fulfilled in and rendered void by the Lord Jesus Christ. Through faith and trust in Him and through His Grace and shed Blood, we are freed from bondage to law (Romans 8, Galatians 5.1, etc). Hence why Christians are called Christians !

      To make such generalistic assumptive sweeping statements like you have, suggesting “separation” has been the same “since Adam’s fall” is nonsensical and I feel very devious. You deliberately leave out the fact there are many different types and forms of separation that change with biblical history and change with the coming of Christ, and yet worst of all, you deliberately leave out the fact many of the different forms of separation practiced by the PBCC / EB are not even biblical, or Christian, or of the teaching of Christ, or of the teaching of the biblical apostle Paul !

      Part 2 to follow

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    15. Part 2

      You say - “you often accuse the brethren of inventing it. That's neither factual or truthful is it?”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, the “eating matter” is just one of many layers, or types, of separation practiced by PBCC/Exclusive Brethren. Different layers, types and forms of separation have been practiced by extremist groups & tribes throughout history generally to enforce an irrational fear or prejudice, by control and fear. For example in the Old Testament there are the Levitical, Jewish and Pharisaical laws many of which involved forms of “Separation”, although much of these were rendered void by the coming of Christ. I have never said in this or any other blog post that PBCC / EB invented separation, or invented it in 1959/60, so to imply I have said such things is false and neither factual or truthful.

      However, the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren have claimed to UK Parliament and Press and in their own glossy spin pr literature that they are a “mainstream Christian church”, YET, no other professed genuine mainstream Christian Church practices such extreme and unbiblical separation, in all its forms and types, as the PBCC / Exclusive Brethren. By the example of their practices the PBCC / EB is teetering on a very thin edge at the very fringe of Christianity.

      Yes, it could be said other religious groups practice forms of extreme separation but they could not be called genuine mainstream Christian churches and many are of a different religion altogether, so, to compare them with PBCC / EB separation is not making a true comparison and is just a confusion and deflection tactic. The PBCC / EB claimed to be a mainstream Christian Church so they should be benchmarked and scrutinised as one.

      Leonardo J Octavianus, the particular form and type of separation being discussed, that of the “Eating Matter”, involving refusing to eat or drink with any non member including all Christian non members WAS introduced into the PBCC/EB in 1959/60, by the alcoholic womaniser James Taylor Junior, (who was found in bed with another mans wife in 1970), but of course you know that and are just trying to spread confusion and falsehoods to imply otherwise.

      Part 3 to follow

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    16. Part 3

      You say – “It seems you can't accept the facts about separation and what it means in your life, can you? ………”Just because you can't accept the principle of separation or have the stomach for its application, doesn't mean it is wrong practise”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, You make these wild assumptive statements with no evidence to support them, I pray this is not common amongst those with whom you walk ?

      Furthermore, this blog and my previous comments in 21 Feb 2014 17:31 to which you reply in 23 Feb 2014 10:51 do not discuss the general principle of separation as the blog topic is the “Eating Matter”, which is just one of many layers, forms and types of “Separation” practiced by PBCC / EB.

      As a Christian myself I naturally try to keep apart from appearances of wrong doing or evil, to me that’s an inherent characteristic of being a Christian. I use Gods Word in the Bible as my guide, so I would not practice separation from family, especially those who are Christians saved by the Blood of Christ. (yet the PBCC/EB do). Nor would I refuse to eat or drink with other Christians saved by the Blood of Christ as that would be disobeying Gods Word. (yet the PBCC/EB do).

      As Christians we are called to spread His Word and be Salt and Light, (Matthew 5), neither of those is possible if we cut ourselves off from the world around us by practicing such unbiblical extremist forms of separation as the PBCC / EB do (such as not eating or drinking with others or other Christians), which results in division in the Body of Christ, something which the biblical Apostle Paul warns specifically against ! (1 Corinthians 1, Romans 16, Ephesians 4, 1 Corinthians 12, 3 John 1, and many other references)

      Leonardo J Octavianus, I speak out against the “Eating Matter” and other types and forms of “Separation” practiced by PBCC / EB because they are not authorised in the Bible which is Gods Word, they are simply “mens ideas” warned about by the biblical apostle Paul as “every wind of doctrine”. That has nothing to do with my “stomach” for them, as you imply. If teaching / doctrine / edicts / rules are not in accord with Gods Word, which is the Bible, Christians should not be bullied to comply, as Christians are taught to test all things by His Word. Many types and forms of how separation is enforced in the PBCC /EB and the reasons given for it, are not biblical and have no support through His Word, therefore as a Christian, I can not support them, instead, I am charged through biblical Pauline ministry to expose & rebuke such False Teachings

      For example,
      PBCC / EB refuse to eat / drink with any other Christian in any other Christian Church outside of their closed group, and give the suggestion 1 Corinthians 5 applies. Yet that application puts every other Christian outside of the PBCC / EB (in other words the rest of the Body of Christ, His Bride, His Assembly), into the category of “a fornicator, covetous, idolator, railer, drunkard, extortioner” !! This is an appalling and shocking way to besmirch other Christians saved by His Blood. Leonardo J Octavianus, what do you think our Saviour Christ thinks of that ?. The PBCC / EB should be ashamed of themselves, are you ashamed Leonardo J Octavianus ?

      Part 4 to follow

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    17. Part 4

      You say – “There should be no doubt then, it's the state of sin in the world that causes separation or distance from God”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, sin does cause distance between man and God and the way to resolve that is through Jesus and His shed Blood (John 3 v16). Yet why do you apply that to a discussion about the “eating matter” and what I raised in my post of 21 Feb 2014 17:31 which focused on the aspect of PBCC / EB refusing to eat or drink with any other Christian outside the group ? What you state has nothing to do with PBCC / EB refusing to eat or drink with other Christians saved by His Blood, does it ?

      Lets look at it another way, If the thousands and millions of Christians outside the PBCC / EB, in the thousands of local Christian assemblies / churches outside the PBCC / EB, have accepted Christ and His work, and therefore the “separation or distance” between them and God is removed through Christ, then, WHY do you and the PBCC / EB try to re introduce that “separation or distance” by refusing to eat or drink with other Christians saved by His shed Blood ??

      If God has accepted the thousands and thousands of Christians in the thousands and thousands of local Christian assemblies / churches, then WHY cant the PBCC / EB do the same ?

      You say “Are you also going to continue to mock those God is pleased with?”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, please explain in my post of 21 Feb 2014 17:31 where I am mocking ?

      I have simply stated reality arising out of observing the results of the practices of the PBCC / EB. I have simply asked questions arising out of observing the results of the practices of PBCC / EB. I admit I do ask challenging & penetrating questions and as a Christian I am charged to expose and rebuke false teaching, so naturally I do expose the hypocrisy, disinformation, falsehoods and false teaching spread by PBCC/Exclusive Brethren. If you call that “mocking” then I really feel for you and I will pray for you and “your like minded”. Christians should always be prepared to “give an account of the hope that is in you” (1 Peter 3v15), if that cant be done based on teachings of the Bible, then it just highlights the fundamental issue does it not ?

      If I may speak plainly, your statement is incredibly assumptive and arrogant. How do you know God is pleased with the Brethren ?, remember what it says in Romans 3 v10 “As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one”. Furthermore, it is the Exclusive Brethren who separate themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ. In other words, separate from every other Christian in every other Christian Church, having no fellowship or worship or communion with any other Blood bought Christian outside of the group. PBCC / EB prefer to speak of those millions of Christians in non denominational churches and denominations as “in system” and “iniquitous” and “not fit for Christian fellowship” and “not fit to eat or drink with” !. Is this not mocking and denigrating the work of Christ in all those Christians ?

      The website of the PBCC / EB says the following –

      “We make a commitment to eat and drink only with those with whom we would celebrate the Lord’s Supper – that is the basis of our fellowship”

      Leonardo J Octavianus, please could you or your like minded give a biblical justification for this statement ?

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    18. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    19. Leonardo J Octavianus
      If The Lord came to an EB Sunday dinner, would they eat with him or refuse, bearing in mind that he wasn't physically at their Supper Meeting?

      Paul

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    20. Dear Bro Rev - separation makes perfect sense to me. It is separation from a system of evil that originates from the devil. If I wish to separate myself from that system then so be it. It is not separation from persons as such.
      To my mind this is what anyone who loves Jesus and who appreciates his work would want to do. who would wish to dally with the system that killed their Saviour. I am happy to mix with any who hold this ground and who also seek to not mix with the system that seeks to denigrate Jesus and Christianity in general.
      Separation in a sense is not a ground that is only held by Brethren, it is open to anyone to do this. indeed I would hazard Mr Rev that there are certain sectors of society that you would not frequent?? Certain persons who in your heart of hearts you would not seek out??
      I will be interested to hear Dearest Rev your pithy answer to my questions.

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    21. I take it then Robert, following your explanation above, that because the HEB separate from everyone apart from themselves, they somehow fancy THEIR system would not have killed Saviour Jesus had Breth been around at the time? Otherwise should you not even be separating from yourselves...?

      I really am trying to understand the HEB separatist logic as you explain it above, but TBH it seems so full of delusional holes, the more you say about it the more it seems like it could only come from the brainwashing dogma of a cult!

      You say anyone who loves Jesus and appreciates his work would want to be separate... but SURELY anyone who loves Jesus and his work would first want to do what he TOLD them to do? Love neighbour, go out into the world, cast not the first stone, show practical care for the needy... these are the overriding (& underpinning) messages He left to those who wish to practice the Christian faith! None of those requests from Him even HINT at the HEB idea that supping (eating/drinking) with others is contaminatory.

      You have not persuaded me in the slightest that HEB separation makes any sense, sorry. The more I try to understand the reasoning you give for it, the more I end up convinced that it is just a great big cover-up for a cultishly-cultivated prejudice against nonHEB. Then after that, I begin to feel disgusted that you (as a group) would have the absolute GALL to practice this stuff in the name of Christ, when it goes so much against the grain of how He was. At least if you want to separate from others do it more honestly, in the name of the leaders of your personality cult - THEY are the only ones who have had the idea that Brethren are actually exclusively purer than everyone else! Jesus wept.

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    22. Amen to that Robert - You said it in a nutshell.

      When one analyses Rev's bluster, it becomes quickly obvious he is unable to be honest about the actual definition or general application of separation. There are many people out there living separate lives for one reason or another. Some don't want to be factual or truthful about the principle of separation.
      You see - There are many families of Christians, in a sense.
      Interestingly - Mrs Thatcher spoke about there being many mansions.
      I deeply respect that women's faith and courage. She made a few mistakes here and there, some more serious than others. However, she was clearly a person who acknowledged her God and was upright.
      Like Mrs Thatcher, we are each given a measure or faith and responsibility and God expects us to be true to it. I think the PBCC have an extraordinary capacity or knowledge of heavenly things.
      Billy Graham acknowledged this capacity when he famously said -
      "The brethren are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use"
      He was also a man, a gifted man at that, who recognised the brethren's uniqueness and authority. He had his own measure, yet he clearly saw something special about the brethren. He didn't understand it, but he did not despise them, I know the brethren have a great regard for that man.
      They also have undeniable authority. You might say - How, who gave it and where is it from? But, there it is to be wondered at.
      Even Jesus wondered at authority, although of course he was completely sinless. He wondered at the centurion. That professional soldier was a trustworthy and upright man who valued authority.
      The world tends to encourage disobedience and to reject the principle of authority or to despise our government's, authority, but it is there for us to respect.

      I have long concluded from Rev's posts, he is someone who rejects right authority and especially when it comes from the PBCC.
      It's shocking to see the results of lawlessness in the world and we should be thankful for any Christian group or individual who do lobby governments to restrain it. As much as I don't fully grasp some of the brethren's ideas about Christianity, I cannot deny they have authority.

      Let's rally round these amazing people, instead of being so negative.

      Frank Lee

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    23. Mr Frank Lee,

      I don’t know where you get the idea that the Hales Brethren have some kind of authority. Back in JND’s day their ideas were fairly influential, but became progressively less so as time went on. Nowadays there must be hardly anyone who attaches the slightest importance to their eccentric notions, and those few who do are probably only the ones that were indoctrinated with Exclusive Brethren ideas from childhood.

      Outside of the Brethren’s own enclave I have never seen any evidence of their extreme ecclesiastical and doctrinal views being regarded by anyone as valuable or credible or even acceptable. Even the quotation you give from Billy Graham does not sound like an expression of approval, quite the reverse. I am quite sure the last few leaders from J.T.Jr onwards enjoy absolutely no credibility anywhere outside of their own sect, and if their ministry was more widely available I think it would meet with universal revulsion.

      Unless I have misunderstood you. Maybe by authority you mean something different. Maybe you just mean a desire to boss people around, in which case I can see what you mean.

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    24. I concur. The Hales Exclusive Brethren/PBCC have no authority recognised outside of themselves. Where do they get this self aggrandising idea from?

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    25. Why do ye always resist the Holy Spirit Ian?
      Frank Lee also has it in a nutshell.
      Please stop acting dumb

      Leonardo J Octavianus

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    26. Robert, 26 Feb 2014 23:13

      You say – “separation makes perfect sense to me. It is separation from a system of evil that originates from the devil. If I wish to separate myself from that system then so be it”

      Robert,
      First of all, the way PBCC / EB practice separation in all its forms, in particular refusing to eat or drink (The Eating Matter), with any other Christian outside the walls of EBism, might make sense to you, but its not from the Bible, if it was, why cant you give a biblical justification for not eating / drinking with any other Christian outside the walls of EBism ?

      Secondly, the subject of the blog post is the “Eating Matter”. The subject of my post of 21 Feb 2014 17:31 explains how PBCC/ EB refuse to eat with any other Christians outside the walls of EBism. Therefore, how does your explanation quoted above fit with these subjects ?

      Robert, suppose for a second, we take your explanation literally, and the reason why PBCC / EB refuse to eat or drink with others, or with any Blood bought Christian in any Christian Church outside the walls of EBism is because they are in “a system of evil that originates from the devil” !! I am sure that’s not what you meant ?, or is it ?

      What you describe has nothing whatever to do with separation from the whole of the rest of the Christian Church and the Christians in those Churches. Furthermore, what you describe has nothing whatever to do with refusing to eat or drink (The Eating Matter), with any other Christian in any other Christian Church. The website of the PBCC / EB says the following –

      “We make a commitment to eat and drink only with those with whom we would celebrate the Lord’s Supper – that is the basis of our fellowship”

      Robert,
      Please could you and your like minded give a biblical justification for this statement ?

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    27. G'day Bro Rev.
      1 - if we are to have a debate then can you first answer my question rather than just ignoring it and firing in a volley of your own. I refer you back to where I asked "indeed I would hazard Mr Rev that there are certain sectors of society that you would not frequent?? Certain persons who in your heart of hearts you would not seek out??"
      2 - It fascinates me that if I make a respectful statement setting out what I believe in a non-inflammatory manner because I thought readers would be interested to know my view, then I am derided and attacked by others who seem to claim to know what Jesus wants them to do. Surely that is not what Jesus would do, is it?
      3 - to Trevor, I was not trying to persuade you or anyone else. I was just making a statement regarding my personal appreciation of separation. Can I ask you the same question that I have asked Bruv Rev - are there not certain sectors of society that you would not frequent?? Certain persons who in your heart of hearts you would not seek out??" - can you seriously deny that you do not in fact actually practise a form of separation yourself?

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    28. Robert 27 Feb 2014 23:42

      Answer to question 1.
      With respect Robert if you look back at the posts in this particular blog thread, you will find that prior to your post of 26 Feb 2014 23:13, I and many others have asked lots of questions of you and your like minded which have still to be answered. It seems you and your like minded like asking questions, yet rarely answer any. Please could you and your like minded properly answer all the questions asked prior to your post of 26 Feb 2014 23:13 ?

      However, back to your question, (which by the way has nothing to do with not eating or drinking with others or other Christians !). As a Christian I seek to follow the teaching in Gods Word, which is the Bible, as a Christian I am called to “Love thy neighbour” and to be “Salt and Light” and to be “Merciful” and to “Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy” and to “preach good news to the poor….to release the oppressed." . Christians can not do these things if they separate themselves from all others behind the walls of a man made system. I find your question odd considering you are supposed to be a Christian, because by saying “Certain persons who in your heart of hearts you would not seek out” is tantamount to saying those persons are to be written off, not worth bothering with !. That’s not how Christ looks at persons as John 3v16 shows. Christ works through His Spirit through persons to demonstrate His love and His message. Therefore as a Christian I should be available to Him for this purpose and so should our Church buildings, for God is no respecter of persons as Acts 10 shows.

      Robert, the Charity Commission Report of Jan 2014, and the new "Faith in Practice" schedule which the PBCC / EB have signed up to, sets out the new PBCC / EB separation doctrine, so will also help answer your questions and bring clarity ?, have you read it ?

      Robert,

      Please could you clarify and explain more who are these “Certain persons who in your heart of hearts you would not seek out”, you must have certain persons on your mind or you would not have asked the question ?

      Please could you clarify and explain more what are these “certain sectors of society that you would not frequent”, you must have certain places on your mind or you would not have asked the question ?

      Answer to question 2
      I am interested in your view that’s why I try to answer your questions. I challenge your statements often because they have no biblical basis, or contradict or twist what Gods Word says in the Bible, and I challenge them at other times because you misrepresent, confuse and twist what I have said (see evidence on other Blog topics). It would be totally wrong of me not to challenge unbiblical false statements and false teaching wouldn’t it ? Hence, I said in my post of 27 Feb 2014 19:17 that “might make sense to you, but its not from the Bible, if it was, why cant you give a biblical justification for not eating / drinking with any other Christian outside the walls of EBism ?

      When Jesus was challenging the Pharisees, calling them “offspring of vipers”, or when the Biblical Apostle Paul spoke to the churches / assemblies in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth etc and told the Galatians they had been “foolish and bewitched” I am sure those on the receiving end thought they too were being derided and attacked. In respect of refuting & challenging false teaching and correcting tactics of deliberate spreading of confusion and misrepresentation of a commentator, plain straightforward speaking is certainly required. Robert, its not about “seem to claim to know what Jesus wants them to do”, that implies there is some uncertainty or just an opinion at play, in Gods Word, the Bible, His teachings are very clearly written down.

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    29. Rev - Separation does make sense to most normal people, but you are in denial because of your warped view of the PBCC.

      Get my point dear boy? Well then - If you don't it's no loss to the rest of humanity. You might have to put-up with the norms of this life, until you take a hike to a nice hot place and have tea with the devil. (Nice guy with cloven hoofs and horns) Sure you two bosom buddies will get on like a house on fire.

      John



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    30. Again John, an attack personally to Bro Rev. A so called argumentum ad hominem rather than intelligently debating the issue. Why do you do this? Do you squirm from your position of weakness and wildly lash out with your metaphorical fists? How can you call unclean what God has called clean? Bro Rev asserts he is blood bought by the Blood of the Lamb. His salvation is assured. So why do you taunt with these bitter and disrespectful attacks? Please answer.

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    31. When I see comments like those John has just made to Rev, I am more concerned for the harm they might do to John than to Rev, particularly if John begins to believe his own comments. That could lead to a really unhealthy set of attitudes and beliefs.

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    32. Robert,
      Continuing to look at points you raise in your post of 26 Feb 2014 23:13

      You say – “It is not separation from persons as such”

      Robert,
      If you really believe that, I feel for you, because you couldn’t get much further from reality. Actions have consequences, so, when you and the PBCC / EB refuse to eat or drink with other Christians, that’s a direct form of separation from persons, its saying to those persons, you are not fit. When you and the PBCC / EB hold an assembly meeting, to withdraw from a Christian because they are going to another Christian Church, that’s a direct form of separation from persons. Not eat or drinking with others or with other Christians is something physical that you do to them, it’s a purposeful act to reject them by not eat or drinking with them

      You say – “To my mind this is what anyone who loves Jesus and who appreciates his work would want to do. who would wish to dally with the system that killed their Saviour”

      Robert,
      Anyone who loves Jesus and is therefore saved by His Blood would want to follow His commandments, teachings and the Bible which is His Word.

      The bible teaches that “Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God” Romans 15 v7. and “But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13

      These references speak to all who love Christ and His Blood, yet the PBCC / EB and you and your like minded reject these instructions and refuse to eat or drink with any Christians in the rest of the Christian Church outside the walls of EBism ! Why ?

      The Bible teaches that “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;, One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” Ephesians 4

      This reference and those in 1 Corinthians 12 speak to all who love Christ and His Blood, yet the PBCC / EB and you and your like minded reject these instructions and refuse to eat or drink with any Christians in the rest of the Christian Church outside the walls of EBism ! Why ?

      Robert, it could certainly be said, you and your like minded in the PBCC / EB have no credibility or authority talking to others about following the Bible when its clear PBCC / EB don’t follow the teachings of His Word and in many cases actively go against His Word !

      Robert, you speak of “dally with the system that killed their Saviour” yet you and the PBCC / EB include the rest of the Christian Church in that ? You must do, because you refuse to eat, drink, fellowship, worship, or have communion at the Lords Table with any other Christian in any other Christian Church outside the walls of EBism, or am I not correct ?

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    33. Robert,
      Continuing to look at points you raise in your post of 26 Feb 2014 23:13

      You say – “I am happy to mix with any who hold this ground and who also seek to not mix with the system that seeks to denigrate Jesus and Christianity in general”

      Robert,
      By that statement you condemn the very system (PBCC / EB) you are a member of !

      It’s the PBCC / EB who denigrate Jesus and Christianity in general by refusing to eat, drink, fellowship, worship, or have communion, with any other Blood bought Christian believer in any other Christian Church outside the walls of the PBCC / EB !

      That means you and your like minded and PBCC / EB are treating other believers as unclean & defiling which dishonours the work of Christ !. This is utterly contrary to all injunctions, teaching, instructions and theology as set out in Gods Word, the Bible

      As if this grievous position was not enough, the PBCC / EB and you and your like minded further practice many many other false teachings not found in Gods Word, the Bible, causing yet more dishonour and denigration to the work of Jesus and damage to the Christian faith in general ! a few of these might be -

      - Refusal to eat or drink with any non member, even family, outside EBism
      - Separation from all non members, even families, even if they are Christians
      - Allowing babes in arms to take communion emblems with no confession of faith
      - Teaching that ministry of men is on the same level as scripture
      - Teaching that all other Christians outside the walls of EBism are in error
      - Teaching that an alcoholic James Taylor Junior, who was found in bed with another mans wife, is a “pure man of god” and “our beloved”
      - Dividing of family if a person leaves EBism resulting in parents, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, etc being split apart, even if they are Christians
      - Teaching that if you leave EBism you cant be a Christian
      - Teaching that outside the walls of EBism no other Christian Church follows biblical apostle Pauls ministry (when in fact the opposite is the case)
      - Teaching that EBism is the only place a Christian should be
      - Teaching that JN Darby recovered the true Christian church
      - Not allowed to marry outside the walls of EBism, even if the other partner is a Christian
      - Teaching that EBism is The Assembly (The Body, The Church)
      - Creating vast numbers of extra biblical edicts and rules, superfluous to the Word of God, unnecessary to walk a Christian life, yet critical to hold members in bondage

      Robert,
      If what you say is what you really believe, then you might want to reconsider your future in the PBCC / EB, for it is certainly a system that “denigrates Jesus and Christianity in general” and its one of the worst kinds, because it masquerades under the cloak of Christianity, “teaching things that ought not to be taught” (Titus 1). If you read your bible you will find it full of warnings about systems like PBCC / EB, (especially in the Biblical Apostle Pauls Teachings ! )

      The website of the PBCC / EB says the following –

      “We make a commitment to eat and drink only with those with whom we would celebrate the Lord’s Supper – that is the basis of our fellowship”

      Robert,
      Please could you, or any of your like minded give a biblical justification for this statement ?

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    34. Hi Robert, re your point 3 of 27/2/14 23:42... You seem to have garnered the idea that some of us who are critical of HEB separation practices, are therefore to be viewed as being against separation in any form? This would be erroneous conjecture on your part, I think.

      Seeing you personalised it, I will try to reply, although I actually do not see what my own views and practice of separation has to do with the ghastliness of how the HEB choose to do it! It has taken many years of being outside the EB, for me to work hard to try to lose the judgementalism and spiritual arrogance with which I was surrounded and imbued during my upbringing. Hopefully by now, my own practice bears so little resemblance to that of the EB in which I was raised, it's not even on the same page!

      However disconnected the two subjects might be, seeing you asked: My personal practice of separation is pretty negligible, based as much as I can on Jesus' inclusive loving walk (but without His degree of wisdom, sadly!) What I mean is: there are very few people or systems that I can think of, from which I would totally withdraw my company (although I would not say there were none). I visited a place the other day, wherein I had to interact with people who had done some quite ghastly criminal acts. I sought strength to do that - having to overcome my natural repulsion to people such as sex abusers - from Jesus' love for people here on earth.

      Yes, there are certain people whom I "would not seek out" - in a social setting you would probably be one of them!, along with other of my acquaintances I can think of who drive me slightly potty, lol - but that is completely different from hard-heartedly refusing to sit down and have a cuppa with you if you wanted me to, or passing you by at a time of need.

      'Not seeking out' and 'separating rigidly from because of nonChristian man-made rules' are two completely different things in my book.

      Cheers, see you on the Jerusalem>Jericho road, while you bind up the wounds eh! As I pootle gently by, looking for others in the ditches, shall I give you a wave or would you consider that too social and defiling?

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    35. Those who would like third party confirmation of the "authority" of the PBCC would do well to read The Hollow Men by Nicky Hager.

      Ricardo

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    36. Mr Frank Lee,
      Re your post 27 Feb 2014 14:44

      I pray you will forgive me for speaking plainly, faithfully and to the point, but trying to decipher your post at 27 Feb 2014 14:44 is frankly impossible, there is neither sense nor reason to it, is it just a spoof ?

      You say – “he is unable to be honest about the actual definition or general application of separation. There are many people out there living separate lives for one reason or another. Some don't want to be factual or truthful about the principle of separation”

      Mr Lee,
      This blog thread is NOT about the definition or general application of separation. Its about the “Eating Matter”, just one of many forms and types of separation

      You haven’t responded to any of the questions asked of you and your like minded about the “Eating Matter” so I assume you and your like minded either don’t know the reasons for it, or are too embarrassed to discuss it, am I correct ?, if not, then please can you and your like minded give a biblical justification for this statement from the PBCC / EB website (this question has been asked multiple times now)

      “We make a commitment to eat and drink only with those with whom we would celebrate the Lord’s Supper – that is the basis of our fellowship”

      If you or your like minded then want to explain the broader definition & general application of separation then please be free to do so with full in context biblical references, so what is said can be tested against Gods Word, the Bible

      You say – “Mrs Thatcher…..I deeply respect that women's faith and courage…a person who acknowledged her God and was upright”

      Mr Lee,
      You do realise the pure specious hypocrisy of what you write don’t you ?

      Let me explain,

      a) Mrs Thatcher was a Christian in firstly the Methodist Church, later in life moving to Church of England, however, PBCC/EB refuse to eat, drink, fellowship, worship or sit at the Lords Table with any Christian in any other Church outside the walls of PBCC/EB. b) PBCC/EB are taught all Christian Churches & the Christians in them, who are outside the sectarian walls of PBCC/EB are all in error and not fit for Christian fellowship. c) Methodist & CofE churches have clergy and PBCC/EB are taught clergy are a “sin against the holy spirit”. d) PBCC/EB are taught that “they” are “The Assembly” or “The Body” and all other Christians & Christian Churches are in the “world” and “in system” e) If a member of the PBCC/EB chose to join the Methodist Church or Church of England, you and your like minded would hold an assembly meeting and “Withdraw” from that person and cut them off as being “iniquitous” and “gone into the world” away from Christianity !

      So, while I respect your beliefs about Mrs T, the PBCC/EB system (which you support), clearly doesn’t. The actions and behaviours outlined above, cast a slur on Christians outside of the PBCC/EB and denigrates the work of Christ in them !

      If dear Mrs T was still alive, would you be able to put your beliefs about her (as quoted), into action ?, would you be free to eat or drink with her ? would you be able to fellowship, worship and sit at the Lords Table with her in communion ? The short answer to these questions is a resounding NO !, because the PBCC / EB don’t allow it ! or am I wrong ?

      Let me put it another way, How can a supposed Christian really respect another persons Christian faith and courage and recognise them as a God fearing upright Christian, if, that same supposed Christian refuses to eat, drink, fellowship, worship or sit at the Lords Table with the other !!

      These actions and behaviours of the PBCC/EB are utterly hypocritical, unbiblical and unchristian. However, outside those sectarian walls, Christians can put their beliefs & individual conscience into action, free as biblically taught to eat, drink, fellowship, worship and sit at the Lords Table with all believers in Christ bought by His Blood

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    37. Mr Frank Lee,
      Re your post 27 Feb 2014 14:44

      You say – “I think the PBCC have an extraordinary capacity or knowledge of heavenly things…..authority. You might say - How, who gave it and where is it from? But, there it is to be wondered at….. I cannot deny they have authority.”

      Mr Lee,
      These quotes all say essentially the same thing and show no acceptance or acknowledgement of reality or bible truth. Mr Lee, have you read the Charity Commission Report of 2014 ?

      A supposed Christian Church group has not a shred of authority, credibility, or capacity or knowledge of heavenly things, when a legal report and investigation contains this exposure of their unchristian and unbiblical false teachings –

      89. In summary the allegations received by the Commission and put to the PBCC related to:

      - The nature of the doctrines and practices of the PBCC generally;
      - The imposition and control of strict codes of behaviour pervading all aspects of life restricting freedom of choice through a centralised and authoritative system
      - the nature and impact of the Disciplinary Practices31;
      - Variations in the practice of disciplinary action of an arbitrary nature subject to the judgment of leaders and the assembly;
      - Harsh disciplinary action taken in relation to often minor deviation or transgression;
      - Physical separation of family members during disciplinary processes with family members living separate lives with little or no contact often leading to permanent divisions within families;
      - Detrimental impact on health and well-being of those subject to discipline and their family members; and
      - Lack of support and isolation from friends within the Brethren community.
      - the impact of the doctrines and practices on those who leave PBCC;
      - The exclusory effect on family life and relationships when members leave as a result of a complete severing of ties;
      - Where contact is made this is infrequent, the quality of any contact and relationship is impoverished;
      - Absence of assistance and support to those who leave including vulnerable children and young people;
      - Those who leave are ostracised and consequently treated differently from other members of the public;
      - Loss of social network; social isolation;
      - Impact on finances where persons have been dependant upon the Brethren for employment and mortgage;
      - Loss of inheritance where relatives remain and leave their property to the Brethren which is encouraged;
      - Inability to participate in funeral arrangements and services of Brethren relatives;
      - Threats of legal action against those who speak out against the Brethren; and
      - Fear and anxiety of repercussions for themselves and family members who remain in the Brethren.
      - the impact of the doctrines and practices on children within the PBCC.
      - Limitation on educational activities for children (e.g. limitations on the use of technology and censorship of materials within Brethren schools);
      - Limitation on social interaction with non-Brethren children within and outside of the school environment;
      - Inability to attend university as the lifestyle conflicts with Brethren principles and practices; and
      - Limited career opportunities due to restrictions on education and for girls who are expected to marry and have children.

      91. Having fully considered all of the available evidence albeit untested by cross examination, the Commission concluded, on balance, that there were elements of detriment and harm which emanated from doctrine and practices of the Brethren and which had a negative impact on the wider community as well as individuals. In particular the nature and impact of the Disciplinary Practices and the impact of the doctrines and practices on those who leave and on children within the PBCC may have consequences for society.

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    38. Mr Frank Lee,

      Re your post 27 Feb 2014 14:44

      You say – “Billy Graham acknowledged this capacity when he famously said - "The brethren are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use". He was also a man, a gifted man at that, who recognised the brethren's uniqueness and authority. He had his own measure, yet he clearly saw something special about the brethren. He didn't understand it, but he did not despise them, I know the brethren have a great regard for that man”

      Mr Frank Lee,
      You’re spinning a yarn with this one as well, but then, deep in your own conscience and heart you know that, and are simply out to deceive the unsuspecting !

      The Exclusive Brethren as the PBCC were known back in Billy Grahams time, were not even allowed to attend any of his evangelistic rallies and conferences, or are you going to deny that too Mr Lee !

      Members of the EB were not allowed to attend because EB back then kept a strict separation from any other Christian and any other Christian Church, the same is still true today. Exclusive Brethren also said that any who were converted to Christianity at Billy Graham conferences and evangelistic rallies were “not genuine believers” and were “only superficial” that there was “no depth to their conversions” !

      Mr Billy Graham was also a member of the Clergy and a Reverend, something which PBCC / EB are taught are a “Sin against the Holy Spirit” !

      Mr Frank Lee,
      As regards the comment “"The brethren are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly use” that is actually a negative not a positive as you seem to paint !

      Christians are called to be “salt and light” and to “go into the nations” and to “love thy neighour” and to “help the widowed, fatherless and oppressed” these are all commands to be done here on earth !

      If you have a copy of that comment and its full context it would be great to see, because according to Mr Billy Graham he says this about it -

      Quote

      “Can One Be So Heavenly Minded That You're No Earthly Good?”

      Oct 7, 2011 By Billy Graham, Tribune Media Services

      Q: Do you think the old quip is true, that some Christians are so heavenly-minded that they aren't any earthly good? I've met some who are like this, but I guess I shouldn't generalize and say it's true of all Christians, should I? -- T.N.

      A: No, you shouldn't -- because by and large it's not. Yes, you may have met a few people you think are like this -- but it isn't true of those sincerely seeking to follow in Jesus' footsteps. In fact, the more seriously we take heaven, the more seriously we'll take our responsibilities on earth.

      Why is this? One reason is because life is short; none of us knows how long we have to live. We need to live each day as if it were our last -- for some day it will be. If you are ever going to live for Christ, it should be now. Every day is a gift from God, and it isn't to be wasted or spent in selfish indulgence, but to be lived for Him. Jesus said, "As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work" (John 9:4).

      Jesus doesn't call us to escape from this world and its problems, but to confront them with His power and love. Just before His arrest Jesus prayed for His disciples, not asking God to remove them from the world but to be with them in its midst. He said, "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world.... As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world" (John 17:15, 18).

      Make sure of your commitment to Christ -- and then ask Him to help you serve Him faithfully every day.

      http://www.arcamax.com/religionandspirituality/billygraham/s-947832

      End Quote

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  3. I reckon the dispute known as the eating matter is what caused the biggest schism since 1848. It has been reckoned that the world population of exclusives once numbered about 100,000 but many left around 1960 because of Jim Taylor’s new rules and many more in 1970 because of his behaviour.

    I remember those who left in 1960 explaining at length in the meeting how the eating rule was not only unscriptural, but went directly against both the spirit and letter of scripture, against both the Old and New Testaments, against both injunctions and examples, many of which were cited. No one attempted to counter their arguments, because the Taylor Party had no counter-arguments to offer. It was just an arbitrary rule that you had to obey or you got the chop. Scripture, truth, morality and Christianity had nothing to do with it.

    That set the precedent that allowed hundreds of further arbitrary rules to be dictated by the leader with no need for his pronouncements to be tested against truth, scripture or morality. It was something of a watershed, dividing Brethren history into a period when they tried to use scripture as their main guide, and a period when they were forced to believe anything Big Brother said and do anything he commanded, however whimsical, irrational or immoral it might be.

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    1. Ian ,You really drone on like a pollen laden and constipated bee.

      Anyone would think you have no personal choice in the matter.
      If you want to eat and drink with every Tom, Dick and Harry, I don't think the PBCC would really be that bothered. They have their life and you have yours. I think it's a classic case of - The word is too hard. Who can hear it.
      Leave them bee :)

      Frank Lee

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    2. I can’t say whether that is fair comment or not, because I’m not sure I have ever heard a pollen-laden, constipated bee. However, the eating matter marked an important turning point that changed the course of Exclusive Brethren history and still has a major chilling effect on friendships and family relationships. For these reasons I think it deserves careful study.

      Eyewitness accounts of the impact it had at the time will have value as primary sources for historians and students of religion, who will perhaps struggle to understand why it all happened.

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    3. Again the tactic of argumentum ad hominem - a personal attack on an exponent of a view instead of a rational response. 'Mr Lee' is this how Brethren discussions go? Ignore the substance and attempt to demean the author? I'm not impressed.

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    4. Seen-it-all-before25 February 2014 at 00:03

      Frank Lee is a spoof, he just pops up every now and then to stir Ian and Rev up, keeps it all alive!! He just provokes them. That is my opinion.
      If they didn't comment then the threads would be a lot shorter.

      Delete
    5. Frank Lee is Frank Carson (not the funny one) is John Handel, Joseph F (not G, I don't think) and an unsavoury bunch who tended to lurk around blogs, such as The Third Sector, and would pop up, like vindictive little "Jack-in-the boxes", to snipe and goad anyone who had a serious and well written contribution to make; best to ignore them, really.

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    6. Seen-it-all-before 25 Feb 2014 00:03 and Anon 25 Feb 2014 09:37

      Yes you are correct, it is simply childish provocation

      However, if comments by Frank Lee, Gordon Bennett, Leonardo J Octavianus and their like, were not responded to, refuted and challenged, then the disinformation, falsehoods, confusion, deliberate half truths, specious reasoning, misrepresentation, pr spin, personal attacks, etc etc would remain unchecked and this blog would just turn into a pr outlet for the Exclusive Brethren.

      Another thought, is that unlike the PBCC Blog and website, this blog allows all to contribute so differing views can be expressed and debated. The opposite is the case with the PBCC Blog and website, which deletes comments not totally supportive, deletes questions which are too penetrating, deletes comments exposing the hypocrisy, disinformation and falsehoods spread by the PBCC/Exclusive Brethren. As a result the PBCC Blog and website is simply a pr spin site with no desire to represent truth and without an ounce of credibility or validity as a true source of information

      However, its such a shame that Frank Lee, Gordon Bennett, Leonardo J Octavianus and their like minded, do not appreciate the open platform to express and debate matters of harm and detriment perpetrated by the PBCC / EB. Instead they choose to abuse the freedom of speech the site allows, by making personal attacks on contributors, misrepresenting their comments, etc, If only they could bring themselves to debate and discuss the issues raised in an adult and Christian manner (after all they claim to be Christian). Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, real Christians should be more than able to discuss the application and interpretation of the Word of God (the bible), without resorting to the conduct of Frank Lee, Gordon Bennett, Leonardo J Octavianus and their like minded.

      The single objective of Frank Lee, Gordon Bennett, Leonardo J Octavianus and their like minded, is to try through whatever means, to shut and close down debate, because its clear from the evidence so far that they have no intention of properly debating or discussing anything.

      It says a lot about the intention, character, nature, mindset, inside the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church otherwise known as the Exclusive Brethren

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    7. Well put Bro-Rev!

      Delete
    8. Seen-it-all-before25 February 2014 at 23:15

      Bro Rev - The thing is that by responding in such detail you are merely playing into the hands of these shysters like Frank Lee, Gordan Bennett, Leo J Octo. I fully understand that you feel you need to refute what they say but I can see that they get great delight from "poking you in the eye" and then sitting back and watching you expend so much effort in treating them as adults. They aren't interested in your replies.
      It is up to you but my mother used to tell me when I was a kid and someone was trying to "wind me up" - just ignore them dear!! - wise words I feel!!!
      Over to you Bro Rev.

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    9. Good on you Leonardo, Frank, John etc etc. Well done my good and faithful servants! There's extra Scotch waiting for you at the end, not to mention naked married sisters for the best of you. Keep up the good works!

      Delete
    10. Seen it all before - You forgot to mention Robert also ran circles round Rev, which reminds us Rev has not yet been able to come-up with anything factual, truth or substance. What a pity he can't come to terms with the error of his ways.

      John

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    11. John. I think Robert ran circles round no-one. He just attempted to muddy the debate with lack of logic and confusion.

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    12. Probably running (and repeating() in circles is all that Robert is good for; he certainly didn't get close enough to land a good, clean punch!

      Marquis of Queensbury

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  4. "Firstly - The Bible is the inspired word of God written by men of faith."
    Firstly - The Qu'ran is the inspired word of God written by men of faith.

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    1. Oh and the HEB have been told by BDH in last month's ministry book that they are to refer to it now only as Holy Scripture.
      "Don't, don't just call it Scripture, don't call it the Bible, it's Holy Scripture."

      Better start following it then for the first time in 55yrs, eh Breth?

      Delete
  5. To Mr Octavanius (or whoever he/she is)

    Not eating with other Christians is implying they are " unclean". Peter was a good Jewish lad who maintained "separation" according to the Jewish law. BUT he had to learn a lesson. This is what the Bible (JND version) says:

    Acts 10:13-16

    13 And there was a voice to him, Rise, Peter, slay and eat.
    14 And Peter said, In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean.
    15 And [there was] a voice again the second time to him, What God has cleansed, do not thou make common.
    16 And this took place thrice, and the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven.

    NOTE: What God has cleansed, and so he was happy to visit and eat with gentile Cornelius. The apostle Paul, Luke and others were happy to live three months with "barbarians" on the island of Malta; after spending some weeks on a ship with over 200 pagan passengers.

    By treating other believers as "unclean, defiling" you are dishonouring the work of Christ = a pretty serious thing. Think seriously about it.

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    1. Rev do you mind if I pop round to the vicarage sometime after your last sermon?
      I would like to take some nice fresh cuttings of those fine Mulberry bushes you have dotted around your garden ( den ) .
      Do you have any tips on how to get them to take root and not wither?
      My dear wife commented that you were seen running frantically round one the other day, but couldn't figure out why? Does this technique help speed-up growth or is it for just to confuse the observer? Also it has just occurred to me -
      What about making some alcoholic Mulberry wine and using it for your Most unholy communion? Ahhh far be the thought....

      David Rose

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  6. David.... I'll save Rev lowering himself to grace you with any form of response; it would be a waste of his time. I assume you are at school and a bit young to be intruding on this blog. I don't think you are able to grasp much of what he, Joan, Ian or others are contributing. I am not sure most adults will understand your "witticisms"; but, no doubt, Frank Lee, Robert, and the usual suspects, will consider you to be hilarious; that is assuming you aren't one, or all, of these.

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  7. I have to say it’s very confusing with all these cranky peebs running round with names like Robert, John, Frank, Granny etc – and for all we know it’s one and the same person.

    I’m wondering if they picked from the identities below it would be easier to follow their ramblings?

    Choose the one most appropriate to you:

    Connedbybruce1
    Connedbybruce2
    Connedbybruce3
    Connedbybruce4
    Connedbybruce5
    Connedbybruce6
    Connedbybruce7
    Connedbybruce8
    Connedbybruce9
    Connedbybruce10

    I’m sorry people, your Mr Bruce is not a man of God. He is an accountant and furniture salesman from Down Under. It’s possible he doesn’t even believe in God. He does believe in your money though. He certainly doesn’t know much about ‘Holy Scripture’, or being a Christian leader of Christian followers. He has shown himself to be an excellent cult leader however, having conned 44,000 people into following and worshipping him. He may be a good furniture salesman too, but as to a Man of God? Sorry Leonardo and posting team. He’s not. Never has been. Never will be. Sorry.

    RLS

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  8. Oh dear Rev - we really adore your long meandering and unholy posts, but we want many more of them to play with. Also such fun to watch them unravel, as Robert and Leonardo pile on the pressure.
    So please type to your heart's content and we will be pleased to lead you up the garden path. Don't worry, there aren't any Mulberry bushes.
    Enjoy your weekend.

    Tony T Eflon

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    1. Tony, which one of Connedbybruce are you ?

      I think you need to get new glasses Tony,

      No posts could be so “long meandering”, meaningless & without substance than that of Frank Lee and his like

      So Rev posts are “unholy” even when he quotes scripture and does so in context. No holes in Rev’s comments

      It is Robert, Leonardo and their like who have been unravelled, EB doctrine clearly doesn’t stand up to scrutiny its so full of holes

      “we will be pleased to lead you up the garden path” does that mean you accept posts by Robert, Leonardo, Frank Lee etc are all just senseless spoofs ?

      These supporters of the EB really need a reality check ! they’re so delusional. But its not surprising after being shut away since birth inside a brainwashing cult, and fed sectarian separatist unchristian nonsense.

      pete

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    2. Way past your bed time, Teflon....

      Girth Crusty

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  9. Laurie
    Is the picture at the top a file picture or an actual spread put on for MPs?

    ReplyDelete